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What are your thoughts on god?

POSTED BY: christhecynic
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 29, 2024 07:06
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CHRISTHECYNIC

Sunday, January 15, 2006 2:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Payne:
Please don't take this the wrong way, but the reason we won't accept that is because it isn't true.

A religious belief is a belief about god taken on faith. A belief is made on faith if it lacks proof.

A religious belief is a belief about god that does not have proof to back it up.

For the belief in the non-existence of god to be non-religious would require there to be proof that god does not exist, you yourself claim to lack this proof.

The belief that there are no gods is religious in the same way the belief that there is one god is and the same way that the belief there are several gods. You yourself have said this:

Quote:
One of the most famous atheist quotes (paraphrased) says that we are all atheists with regard to most gods ever worshipped by man. Actual atheists simply refuse to make an exception for the God of the Bible, or for the gods of Hinduism, etc., etc.

That defintion of atheism is wrong with respect to both dictionaries and the words roots, but it proves a good point. The belief in the nonexistance of god, any god, is a religious one.

Quote:
Quote:
They will wave their hands and throw around definitions, but many will never admit that they cannot prove that god doesn’t exist and that therefore their claim to a superior rationale is nonsense.

I admit it right here: I cannot prove that God doesn't exist.

Many does not even mean, "Most," clearly you are not one of the many which he speaks of. As he has met the people he speaks of he is more qualified than you to speak of what they do and do not admit.

-

Again: A religious belief is one about god (or gods) that is not backed up with proof. Unless there is proof that god does not exist, which you say you personally can not, then the belief that there is not a god is religious.

Its not something to get up in arms about, there is only one group on earth that do not hold religious beliefs, the agnostics, and they are hardly the norm. Take comfort in the fact that you are normal.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Sunday, January 15, 2006 2:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
"Son of Man" was actually a Messianic title.

If you look into the history of the Messianic traditions it was not believed that the Messiah would be the son of god until Jesus came, before that people thought the Messiah was pure human.

-

I was going to say more, but you are right my intent was not to bog down the thread with debate, and both sides of the argument have been outlined, and that is enough.

UNREGISTEREDCOMPANION

Sunday, January 15, 2006 2:25 AM

I used to be very religious, but I always had more questions than answers. I spent a lot of time in the corner at Sunday school for asking questions the teachers did not want to answer.

I decided on my own to read the bible from cover to cover instead of just the passages the preacher told us all to read. Years earlier, I had realized a lot of stuff was being taken out of context. I read very fast and used to read the passages before and after the assigned ones waiting for the slow people to get doen.

Anyway, I started with the old testiment. Didn't take long for me to seriously question the whole religion thing after that...LOL

~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

PAYNE

Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:
Originally posted by Payne:
Please don't take this the wrong way, but the reason we won't accept that is because it isn't true.

A religious belief is a belief about god taken on faith. A belief is made on faith if it lacks proof.

A religious belief is a belief about god that does not have proof to back it up.

But no opinion, one way or the other, can be backed up with objective proof. Religious conversion relies on subjective experience. I can't agree with your definition, I think it includes far too much. Religious belief seems pretty inextricably bound up with a positive belief in some kind of supernatural deity.

Quote:
For the belief in the non-existence of god to be non-religious would require there to be proof that god does not exist, you yourself claim to lack this proof.

I do lack that proof, but lacking proof that a supernatual being doesn't exist does not make my working assumption that it doesn't equal to a religious belief. It's just that absent positive evidence for a god, I lack belief in one. That's not the same as a positive assertion that there is no god.

I take no offense at being told I have a religious belief, believe me, but to say I do just seems kind of bizarre. Would you say you have a religious belief about leprechauns?

Quote:
The belief that there are no gods is religious in the same way the belief that there is one god is and the same way that the belief there are several gods. You yourself have said this:

Quote:
One of the most famous atheist quotes (paraphrased) says that we are all atheists with regard to most gods ever worshipped by man. Actual atheists simply refuse to make an exception for the God of the Bible, or for the gods of Hinduism, etc., etc.

That defintion of atheism is wrong with respect to both dictionaries and the words roots, but it proves a good point. The belief in the nonexistance of god, any god, is a religious one.

Belief that there cannot be a god is, I would say, a religious one. But lack of belief either way?

If you want to call that agnosticism, I have no objections. Whatever helps us understand each other better is fine. Among atheist groups and discussion forums, the distinction is referred to as "hard atheism" versus "soft atheism." I am referred to as a soft atheist. I lack belief in a god.

Quote:
Quote:
They will wave their hands and throw around definitions, but many will never admit that they cannot prove that god doesn’t exist and that therefore their claim to a superior rationale is nonsense.

I admit it right here: I cannot prove that God doesn't exist.

Many does not even mean, "Most," clearly you are not one of the many which he speaks of. As he has met the people he speaks of he is more qualified than you to speak of what they do and do not admit.

Perhaps I came off as aggressive in that last point I made. Yes, he has met the people he has met and I have not, but I've met many atheists myself. Very few of us, I would say, see a reason to consider ours a religious belief. We do not believe categorically that there is no God. That's simply the working assumption we're left with when we see no evidence for the Gods others propose to us.

Quote:
Again: A religious belief is one about god (or gods) that is not backed up with proof. Unless there is proof that god does not exist, which you say you personally can not, then the belief that there is not a god is religious.

I just don't agree with your definition of a religious belief. It seems to me that a religious belief requires some kind of positive assertion that there is something beyond the material world we see. By your definition, it seems that anything qualifies, even agnosticism, because nothing can be backed up with proof.

Quote:
Its not something to get up in arms about, there is only one group on earth that do not hold religious beliefs, the agnostics, and they are hardly the norm. Take comfort in the f

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CHRISTHECYNIC

Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:
I used to be very religious, but I always had more questions than answers. I spent a lot of time in the corner at Sunday school for asking questions the teachers did not want to answer.

*Raises hand*
"Um, Adam and Eve were the only ones around right?"
"Yes"
"And they had two kids, Cain and Abel"
"Yes"
"So there are four people on earth at this point?"
"Yes"
"Then Cain kills Abel and there are only three people left, right?"
"This is taking up a lot of class time."
"Well then Cain goes to the village next door, where did the village come from?"
"Too much class time, moving on ..."

STDOUBT

Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:10 AM

Tao Te Ching
56
Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know.
Keep your mouth closed.
Guard your senses.
Temper your sharpness.
Simplify your problems.
Mask your brightness.
Be at one with the dust of the earth.
This is primal union.
He who has achieved this state is unconcerned with friends and enemies, with good and harm, with honour and disgrace.
This therefore is the highest state of man.
~Lao Tsu 6th century BCE
--
(another thought)

ROCKETJOCK

Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

Lucifer had some good lines, not the least of which is his:
"Here at least we shall be free"
which brings up a question many people have, a lot of versions of god seem incredibly totalitarian, not just in what you do but even in what you think. Is that really a good thing?

Well, not to attack Judeo-Christian mythology, but as far as I can tell, Jehovah is supposed to be worshipped and praised because:

(1) He is bigger and stronger than everyone else.

And

(2) Because if you don't worship him, in exactly the right way, he'll torture you. Forever.

Myself, I like a competitive market in deities. Keeps 'em honest.

"The Torah... the gospels... the Koran... Each claimed as the infallible word of God. Misquoted, misinterpreted, misunderstood, and misapplied. Maybe that's why he doesn't do any more interviews." -- Tatsuya Ishida

ZIIANARKIST

Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:26 AM

Double gor'ram post...

ZIIANARKIST

Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:28 AM

Quote:

*Raises hand*
"Um, Adam and Eve were the only ones around right?"
"Yes"
"And they had two kids, Cain and Abel"
"Yes"
"So there are four people on earth at this point?"
"Yes"
"Then Cain kills Abel and there are only three people left, right?"
"This is taking up a lot of class time."
"Well then Cain goes to the village next door, where did the village come from?"
"Too much class time, moving on ..."

Can someone make that a MacHall guest comic?

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CHRISTHECYNIC

Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:29 AM

Payne,

I wish you had said you were a soft atheist before; it would have cleared things up significantly. Your stating you are not agnostic seemed to imply hard atheism.

Belief in a lack of god is religious; lack of belief in god is not. Agnosticism and soft atheism (which I don’t choose to differentiate between unless forced) are not religious because they are of the second mindset.

I mean it is so simple, if you have a set of beliefs, that set could be a set of one, based on faith about god it is religious. The belief that there is no god is by far the most comprehensive set of all, it covers every variation, every situation, it has universal application that no other religion dares to dream of, all of this in a set of one.

On the other hand a soft atheist, unless I fail to understand the term, does not have any beliefs, based on faith or anything else, about god. Thus that is not religious.

-

To any onlooker here the distinction is important, on god there are three groups of believers:

People who believe in god (or gods.)
People who do not believe.
People who believe there is no god.

A lot of people lump the second and third together because neither believes there is a god, but that is just as faulty as grouping the first two together on the grounds that neither believes there is no god.

The first and third groups are characterized by belief. More than that they are positions of belief without proof; blind faith in point of fact. Because they are about blind faith with respect to god (and not say leprechauns or people named Isabel) they are religious.

The middle group does not believe things on blind faith with respect to god so they are not religious.