Boeing 737 Max

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, August 21, 2026 17:40
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SIGNYM

Sunday, March 17, 2019 6:27 PM

Apparently the plane was redesigned to accomodate a more powerful, more efficient engine with altered aerodynamics. Then, in order to counter those changes, an "anti-stall" subroutine was programmed into the autopilot. According to some reports, several American pilots have voluntarily reported that the moment that they engaged the autopilot the plane went steeply nose-down, and the only way they could regain control was by disengaging the autopilot. Supposedly, since none of these incidents resulted in an accident, they aren't kept in the FAA database.

In the case of the Ethiopian crash, the "jack screw" indicates that the plane was set to dive. Now, I doubt the pilots did that and deliberately crashed the plane; more likely that in the panic they didn't disengage the autopilot and couldn't overcome the autopilot settings.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/15/business/boeing-ethiopian-crash.htm
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It will be interesting to see what the final investigation shows, but this is a blow to Boeing.

There was a similar incident regarding an Airbus operated by French airlines which was lost over the Atlantic on Brazil to France flight. As I recall, the problem with the Airbus flight was that it hit really bad weather. That plane is highly automated, and the pilots simply didn't know how to keep the plance from crashing because they were undertrained in manual flight control.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/air-france-flight-447-crash-report-airbu
s-autopilot-to-blame

Self-driving cars, anyone???

BRENDA

Sunday, March 17, 2019 11:58 PM

The planes of this type we have in Canada have been grounded. And from what I heard on the news other countries have grounded them too.

RUE

Monday, March 18, 2019 1:49 AM

"As I recall, the problem with the Airbus flight was that it hit really bad weather. That plane is highly automated, and the pilots simply didn't know how to keep the plane from crashing because they were undertrained in manual flight control."

I haven't looked it up, but I believe one of the problems with that plane is that it has only one airspeed sensor, whose port iced-up. That caused a faulty reading that the autopilot tried to correct.

AURAPTOR

Monday, March 18, 2019 2:20 AM

Any system which fights against the pilot and basic physics , will ultimately fail. Sadly, when Boeing made 'adjustments' to the new MAX, they failed to alter their instruction manual for pilots.

It's reported that the data from the 2 most recent 737 crashes are showing similar info, indicating that the crashes weren't random flukes or coincidence.

This really sucks for Boeing, which , until recently, had been doing extremely well.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Monday, March 18, 2019 2:51 AM

I'm not sure if this analysis is correct, but it's extremely detailed and matches all f the publicly-available configuration differences between the 737 and the 737-max series, including the handling characeristics changes which came from the landing gear changes which were necessitated by the larger engines.

Quote:
The Best Analysis Of What Really Happened To The Boeing 737 Max From A Pilot & Software Engineer

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-17/best-analysis-what-really-ha
ppened-boeing-737-max-pilot-software-engineer

-----------
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If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

SECOND

Monday, March 18, 2019 3:38 AM

Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

Boeing failed to account for how the system could reset itself each time a pilot responded, thereby missing the potential impact of the system repeatedly pushing the airplane’s nose downward.

Boeing assessed a failure of the system as one level below “catastrophic.” But even that “hazardous” danger level should have precluded activation of the system based on input from a single sensor — and yet that’s how it was designed.

The black box data retrieved after the Lion Air crash indicates that a single faulty sensor — a vane on the outside of the fuselage that measures the plane’s “angle of attack,” the angle between the airflow and the wing — initiating a tug of war as the automatic controls repeatedly pushed the nose of the plane down and the pilots wrestled with the manual controls to pull it back up, before the final crash.

The people who spoke to The Seattle Times and shared details of the safety analysis all spoke on condition of anonymity to protect their jobs at the FAA and other aviation organizations.

Several technical experts inside the FAA said October’s Lion Air crash is only the latest indicator that the agency’s delegation of airplane certification has gone too far, and that it’s inappropriate for Boeing employees to have so much authority over safety analyses of Boeing jets.

Blame the Republicans in Congress: The FAA, citing lack of funding and resources, has over the years delegated increasing authority to Boeing to take on more of the work of certifying the safety of its own airplanes.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

SECOND

Monday, March 18, 2019 4:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"As I recall, the problem with the Airbus flight was that it hit really bad weather. That plane is highly automated, and the pilots simply didn't know how to keep the plane from crashing because they were undertrained in manual flight control."

I haven't looked it up, but I believe one of the problems with that plane is that it has only one airspeed sensor, whose port iced-up. That caused a faulty reading that the autopilot tried to correct.

Rue, you are wrong in all the details: Airbus has three sensors. All failed because of ice. The autopilot shut off, as it should, leaving control to the co-pilot, who crashed the plane. Captain Chesley Sullenberger said, "I don't know why he did that." The co-pilot's last words were 'what's happening?', then splat into the ocean. Yep, he sure didn't know.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2790768/f-dead-pilot-shouted-air-fran
ce-jet-plunged-atlantic-final-moments-doomed-flight-447-two-sleeping-pilots-revealed.html

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

6IXSTRINGJACK

Monday, March 18, 2019 6:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"As I recall, the problem with the Airbus flight was that it hit really bad weather. That plane is highly automated, and the pilots simply didn't know how to keep the plane from crashing because they were undertrained in manual flight control."

I haven't looked it up, but I believe one of the problems with that plane is that it has only one airspeed sensor, whose port iced-up. That caused a faulty reading that the autopilot tried to correct.

This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.

I'm sure that coupled with company cutbacks lead to Monster.com job postings for their pilots reading something like this:

"Got a smart phone? Wanna fly a plane? It's easy! My ex-wife flies a plane, and she's 'tarded!"

So, yes, Captain Crunch... In response to your dismissal that Idiocracy has gone from being a comedy to a documentary, planes are now falling out of the sky.

If I can remember where that post was, I'll be sure to reply with this story for you.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, March 18, 2019 6:34 AM

For most of Aviation History, Investigation of Catastrophic Failures focused on how many seconds elapsed after the "Oh Shit" moment, signifying when the Pilot-in-Command realized there was a serious problem - and striving to find a solution which could have been implemented instead of the actions which resulted in the failure.
Now that birds are flown by computer, there is almost never an Oh Shit moment - it has been replaced by the "What's It Doing?" Query. Meaning the Pilot-in-Command wonders what is the Flight Computer doing.

There seems to be some confusion between Computer Controlled Flight and Auto Pilot.
IIRC, there were 4 Categories of Auto-Pilot. Including Flight from 400 ft of Altitude after Takeoff until the final 400 ft of Approach to Landing. And from 200ft beginning to end. And 100 ft begin to end. And entire sequence from Takeoff until Touchdown and Stop. That last one was never allowed to be selected on the Auto Pilot. I believe that one was Category 1. I believe the 400 ft one was Category IV, and that was the only selection I ever saw selected when installing the Auto Pilot.

Auto Pilots have been used since at least the 1970s, and I think the 1960s.

It is not really the Auto Pilot which is causing failures, it is the Flight Computers, and the lack of experience ingrained in Pilots who no longer ever fly the bird.

Airbus has been the most Safety-Designed birds built.
Frozen Pitot Tubes are a known potential failure. When Pilots depart Visual Flight Rules flight, they are required to dedicate complete faith to Instruments. Without visual reference due to dark, fog, etc, they must trust the instrument readings to be true indicators of Airspeed, A-o-A, Altitude, Bank. When the first 2 Pitot Tubes freeze up, caution should be exercised before relying upon the final.

SECOND

Monday, March 18, 2019 6:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

This is what happens when we let computers do everything for us.

Wrong. The design would crash the plane when one sensor fails. One. Sensor. Fails. The people who work at Boeing knew this BEFORE THE CRASH. They spoke to the Seattle Times, which kept their names secret because otherwise they will be fired from Boeing. The Times wants to write future stories about Boeing and it wants its sources to continue working there.
www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-fa
a-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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