Obama: We brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 02:45
VIEWED: 12426
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SIGNYM

Saturday, February 7, 2015 4:40 AM

Quote:
Signy

Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind.-KIK

Seriously???

Wow, I thought KPO was only twisted about Russia!

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 5:14 AM

Ask him yourself. I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 7, 2015 5:26 AM

Quote:
Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind.-KIKNo, he's kept that part pretty quiet. I don't think he wants to revisit the issue. Ask him yourself. I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you.

So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 5:37 AM

http://www.razumkov.org.ua/eng/poll.php?poll_id=90

Mar 2013
Do you support the activity of Viktor Yanukovych? (recurrent, 2002-2013)
Fully support 14
Support certain actions 26.1
Do not support 56.4
Don`t know such politician 0.5
Difficult to answer 2.9

http://rb.com.ua/eng/projects/omnibus/8886/

WHETHER UKRAINIANS SUPPORT EUROMAYDAN
http://rb.com.ua/EmU_2_engl.JPG

WHAT CONSEQUENCES WILL EUROMAYDAN HAVE FOR UKRAINE
http://rb.com.ua/EmU_3_engl.JPG

EVALUATION OF AGREEMENTS OF V. YANUKOVICH IN MOSCOW ABOUT PRICE REDUCTION FOR GAS FOR UKRAINE AND CREDIT GRANTING TO UKRAINE OF 15 BILLION DOLLARS
http://rb.com.ua/EmU_4_engl.JPG

http://www.ukrinform.ua/eng/news/survey_most_ukrainians_to_vote_for_ya
nukovych_in_first_round_311174

Survey: Most Ukrainians to vote for Yanukovych in first round

http://www.dw.de/ukrainian-support-for-eu-association-agreement-declin
es/a-17189085

Ukrainian support for EU association agreement declines Date 29.10.2013

http://www.dw.de/the-pressure-on-yanukovych-increases/a-17257434

The November poll of the Kiev International Institute for Sociology (KMIS), for instance, shows Ukraine as a divided country. According to the recent poll, 39 percent of Ukrainians would vote for EU accession, even if the issue is not yet on the agenda. But nearly as many Ukrainians - 37 percent – support integration with Russia and other former Soviet republics in the form of a customs agreement.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

KPO

Saturday, February 7, 2015 5:39 AM

Quote:
Then why are the Berkut being blamed by the current government?

The Berkut are suspected of some of the shootings, but not most of them - I believe I said that.

Quote:
I understand that there are a lot of conspiracies behind events, but one of the prime tenets of putting up a conspiracy theory is that you have to show the the conspirators would actually benefit from their own plans. Qui bono? So, how would this help Yanukovich, or Russia?

A huge protest movement trying to unseat an undemocratic leader, and a violent crackdown. It's the same story we've seen played out many times around the world. There's no mystery here, or conspiracy theory.

Quote:
So, because people don't like a President, and EARLY ELECTIONS ARE PLANNED for the near future, that means that they have the "right" to violently overthrow the government?

At what point someone has the 'right' to take up arms and try to overthrow a tyrannical government, is an interesting ethical question. But in the case of Ukraine, we're not talking about a small band of people staging a coup, we're talking about hundreds of thousands if not millions of ordinary people taking to the street and demanding change. And yes, people have the right to do that, and to refuse to wait for Yanukovich to fix another election.

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"Even the Commanding General of the Ukraine forces clearly and unequivocally says that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine" - bullshit.

Fixed that for you. And what part of 'proxy' don't you understand?

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Polls and referenda, plus the rather robust volunteer force of residents tells an opposite story.

Oh dear me.

Quote:
What would you say if it turned out that it really WAS US mercs?

You are right that whoever carried out those shooting is key to this whole debate. But you don't have evidence that the US carried out the shootings, you just have your worldview of the US as 'the great Satan', which is your guiding star.

Quote:
So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???

Kiki is unhinged.

It's not personal. It's just war.

KPO

Saturday, February 7, 2015 5:57 AM

Kiki, Yanukovich's poll numbers were terrible, and had been for some time even BEFORE the Maidan protests:

http://www.ifes.org/Content/Publications/Press-Release/2013/2013-Publi
c-Opinion-Survey-in-Ukraine.aspx
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/poll-yanukovych-to-lose-to-op
position-candidates-in-second-round-of-presidential-elections-334239.html

Then came the shootings in Kiev, and the discovery of all the grotesque extravagances at Yanukovich's private mansion, which now acts as a museum to his corruption. I'll say again, Ukrainians despise Yanukovich. In the May presidential elections Yanukovich's Party of Regions got 3% of the vote - and after that it DISBANDED. And yet to you, this man is somehow the 'legitimate' president.

It's not personal. It's just war.

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 7, 2015 6:11 AM

Quote:
Then why are the Berkut being blamed by the current government?-SIGNY
The Berkut are suspected of some of the shootings, but not most of them - I believe I said that.

Let me rephrase: Then why aren't so-called Russian-affiliated security agents being investigated?

Quote:
I understand that there are a lot of conspiracies behind events, but one of the prime tenets of putting up a conspiracy theory is that you have to show the the conspirators would actually benefit from their own plans. Qui bono? So, how would this help Yanukovich, or Russia?-SIGNY
A huge protest movement trying to unseat an undemocratic leader, and a violent crackdown. It's the same story we've seen played out many times around the world.

Where you will see the USA's hand quite often.

Quote:
So, because people don't like a President, and EARLY ELECTIONS ARE PLANNED for the near future, that means that they have the "right" to violently overthrow the government?-SIGNY
At what point someone has the 'right' to take up arms and try to overthrow a tyrannical government

Yanno, this is just fucking hyperbole. What did Yanukovich do that was so "tyrannical"? Did he jail and torture thousands? Outlaw opposition parties? Set thugs on Parliamentarians? Burn people in buildings? Drone them from the sky?

BE SPECIFIC. Tell me about this "tyrant"!

Quote:
is an interesting ethical question. But in the case of Ukraine, we're not talking about a small band of people staging a coup, we're talking about hundreds of thousands if not millions

Ahem!

Quote:
of ordinary people taking to the street and demanding change. And yes, people have the right to do that, and to refuse to wait for Yanukovich to fix another election.

So, the violence was NOT precipitated by Russian-affiliated security agents (as you suggest) but by "the people"?

Yanno, your stories don't even form a coherent narrative. You can't even make it from one end of a post to another without contradicting yourself. That's what happens when you don't keep an eye on reality!

Quote:
"Even the Commanding General of the Ukraine forces clearly and unequivocally says that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine" - SIGNY
Fixed that for you. And what part of 'proxy' don't you understand?-KPO

So, the Commanding General has no idea what's going on? Seems to me that he's just saying something you don't want to hear.

Quote:
Polls and referenda, plus the rather robust volunteer force of residents tells an opposite story.-SIGNY
Oh dear me.-KPO

I posted several videos of DPR-LPR fighters. There are also many stories (in western press) which discuss who they are. Many of them are coal miners, farmers, drugstore technicians... people from the area. The articles make a point of it. You, OTOH, keep pointing to a "Russian invasion" that conveniently never actually appears.

Quote:
What would you say if it turned out that it really WAS US mercs?-SIGNY
You are right that whoever carried out those shooting is key to this whole debate. But you don't have evidence that the US carried out the shootings, you just have your worldview of the US as 'the great Satan', which is your guiding star.-KPO

Well, we did exactly the same thing in Venezuela.

Quote:
So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???-SIGNY
Kiki is unhinged.-KPO

So you won't answer the question.

That's OK, you just answered the question.

Quote:
It's not personal. It's just war.

Be careful what you wish for.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 6:18 AM

Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind.     1Kiki

Seriously???
Wow, I thought KPO was only twisted about Russia!    SIGNY

Ask him yourself. I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you.     1Kiki

So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???    SIGNY

Kiki is unhinged.    KPO

No, I'm not unhinged, it's just that he's a liar.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=7

KPO

Tuesday, September 23, 2014 1:30 PM

I never said anything about importing them - no, it manufactured them and hid the evidence. However, now that you mention it, I did also hear a theory that Saddam DID import WMD - secretly from the USA back in the 80s; and then when the US captured them in 2003 they covered it up. Personally I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm guessing you can't disprove it...

You see Signy, that's the kind of critter you're dealing with.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 6:41 AM

so anyway krappy

"Kiki, Yanukovich's poll numbers were terrible, and had been for some time even BEFORE the Maidan protests"

But EVERYBODY'S poll numbers were low. It's not like Yanukovych was an exception. In you own post, he was somewhat better than average.

On the question of Euromaidan - since you didn't bother to click on the links

WHETHER UKRAINIANS SUPPORT EUROMAYDAN
Yes in general 45%
No in general 50%
Found it difficult to answer 6%

WHAT CONSEQUENCES WILL EUROMAYDAN HAVE FOR UKRAINE
Positive in total 31%
Negative in total 43%
Will have no effect 17%
Found it difficult to answer 10%

EVALUATION OF AGREEMENTS OF V. YANUKOVICH IN MOSCOW ABOUT PRICE REDUCTION FOR GAS FOR UKRAINE AND CREDIT GRANTING TO UKRAINE OF 15 BILLION DOLLARS
Positive in total 47%
Neutral/ indifferent 19%
Negative in total 27%
Will have no effect 7%
Found it difficult to answer 10%

The totality of the facts (in your own lying way you acknowledge them in the breach) is that Ukraine was divided over association with the EU, deeply distrustful of what Euromaydan would bring, and not at all united in a desire to get rid of Yanukovych or his government (or his agreements).

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

1KIKI

Saturday, February 7, 2015 9:27 AM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2573923/Estonian-Foreign-Minis
try-confirms-authenticity-leaked-phone-call-discussing-Kiev-snipers-shot-protesters-possibly-hired-Ukraines-new-leaders.html

Estonian Foreign Ministry confirms authenticity of leaked phone call discussing how Kiev snipers who shot protesters were possibly hired by Ukraine's new leaders

Leaked phone call suggests anti-government protesters hired the snipers
Call between EU's foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonia's foreign affairs minister Urmas Paet
Paet appears to claim opposition leaders hired the snipers that killed 94

By John Hall

Published: 13:14 EST, 5 March 2014

"(Olga) can say that it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it's really disturbing that now the new coalition that -- they don't want to investigate what exactly happened. There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers, it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new coalition," Paet told Ashton.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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