Obama: We brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 10, 2015 02:45
VIEWED: 12426
PAGE 3 of 8
Quote:Yet another unproven allegation, and probably wrong. Kiev's case against the Berkut is widely seen as flawed, as reported by Reuters (you accept Reuters as a source, do you not?)
Obama: "...we brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine."
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/obama-theres-no-formula
-in-which-this-ends-up-being-good-for-russia-video-379148.html
-SIGNY
It's an interesting admission. I hadn't really thought about it before, but someone behind the scenes does deserve great credit for the way Yanukovich left power. The way that Yanukovich lost power surprised everyone - with its suddenness, and cleanness and peacefulness. One day Yanukovich is ordering his security services to fire on unarmed protesters
Quote:
In April, prosecutors arrested three suspects, members of an elite unit within the “Berkut” riot police. Senior among them was Dmytro Sadovnyk, 38, a decorated commander, who was accused of ordering his men to fire on the crowds on the morning of Feb. 20. The three stand accused of massacring 39 unarmed protesters.
... A Reuters examination of Ukraine's probes into the Maidan shootings - based on interviews with prosecutors, defence attorneys, protesters, police officers and legal experts – has uncovered serious flaws in the case against Sadovnyk and the other two Berkut officers.
Among the evidence presented against Sadovnyk was a photograph. Prosecutors say it shows him near Kiev’s Independence Square on Feb. 20, wearing a mask and holding a rifle with two hands, his fingers clearly visible.
The problem: Sadovnyk doesn’t have two hands. His right hand, his wife told Reuters, was blown off by a grenade in a training accident six years ago. As prosecutors introduced the image at a hearing in April, said Yuliya Sadovnyk, her husband removed a glove and displayed his stump to the courtroom.
There are other flaws with the prosecution case, please read the article
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/10/us-ukraine-killings-probe-sp
ecial-report-idUSKCN0HZ0UH20141010
Quote:yes
Powerful people turned against Yanukovich, and undermined his power. A corrupt
Quote:probably not
murdering
Quote:I fixed that for you, since you forgot that part
democratically elected president
Quote:Just like the PREVIOUS election, only not as democratic, because your so-called "free and fair" elections did not include a significant portion of the nation which was unwilling to accept the undemocratically-appointed leaders of a violent coup.
was ousted and within months the country had free and fair democratic elections.
Quote:Well, that's the USA and Britain's "exceptionalism" all wrapped up in one sentence: "We" have the right to meddle on any nation, to depose elected officials for specious reasons, and then we get to pat ourselves on the back for a "job well done". No wonder you're hated by so many around the world.
That to me sounds like brokering well done.
Quote:Be careful what you wish for.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.
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MRG
Quote:WHAT does it take to have a democratic vote?
I think you meant "not democratic" whatever...
You and KPO seem to be extremely confused about the topic.
So, why don't you explain to us why one election -the one that elected Yanukovich- was not "democratic" while the one that "elected" Poroshenko (the one that excluded a significant minority of Ukrainians) is seen as democratic? What flaws were present in the first election that were remedied by the second?
Be specific.
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Here is the transcript. The comments in [] aren't mine, but the underlines are.
Quote:
buzz
buzz
hello
good afternoon madame.
this is again the center action service …
should we go, do you think it is going to be possible straight away?
to connect Mr. Katz … yes sir.
so please go on, I’m connecting with the Lady Ashton cabinet.
yes thank you.
you’re welcome.
buzz
yes hello this is Mian speaking.
yes it is for the conference with the Estonian foreign minister, they are online.
hello.
yes hello can you put me through please?
yes i’ll connect you to Mr. Katz, one moment.
thank you.
hello minister.
hello.
hi I’ll put you through, thank you very much.
thank you.
buzz
hello.
buzz
hello.
hello.
hello how are you?
I am fine.
good. I’m good.
and you?
Ashton - good. I just wanted to catch up with you on what you thought when you were there.
Paet - yes, I returned last night already, so that I was one day.
Ashton - yes. Impressions?
Paet- Impressions are sad. I met with representatives of Regions Party [the Party of the just-ousted President Yanukovych], also new coalition representatives, and also civilian society, there is this lady called Olga, who is head of the doctors, yes, you know her.
Ashton yes, I do,
Paet - so that yes, whew, my impression in this is sad, that there is, well, no trust, that there was the sense that there was those politicians who will return now to the coalition, well, people from Maidan [the anti-Yanukovych demonstrators] and from civilian society [non-governmental leaders in Ukraine], they say they know everybody who will be in your [whatever the Maidaners install as constituting the new] government, and all these guys have dirty past [i.e., even the Maidan leaders know that everyone who stands even a chance to be installed into the new government has a “dirty past”]
Ashton -yes,
Paet - So that they, well, they made some proposals to this same Olga and to others from civilian society, that they join new government, but this Olga, for example, says directly that she’s ready to go [in]to the government only in the case if she can take with her her team, call in experts to start real healthcare reforms, so that, oh, basically that the trust level is absolutely low; on the other hand all the security problems, the (inaudible) problems, Crimea, all this stuff, Regions Party was absolutely upset, they say that well they accept this now, that there will be new government and there will be external [for-Yanukovych’s-replacement] elections, but there is enormous pressure against the members of parliament [from his Regions Party], that there are uninvited visitors [Ukrainian nazis] during the night, to [Regions] Party members, well, journalists, some journalists who were with me, they saw during the day that one member of parliament was just beaten in front of the parliament building, by these guys with the guns on the streets [the highly organized Ukrainian nazis, beating those Parliamentarians, to terrorize them into not resisting the coup],
Ashton - yeah,
Paet -so that all these messages is still there, and of course this Olga and others from civilian society, they were absolutely sure that people will not leave the streets before they see that the real reforms will start, so that it is not enough that there is just change of government. [He now changes totally to what the EU’s and his own country’s leaders care the most about, which isn’t at all “she can take with her her team, call in experts to start real healthcare reforms,” but instead:] There is the main impression, so that from EU’s and from Estonia’s perspective of course, they should be ready to put this financial package together [for their aristocrats’ Ukrainian bondholders], also together with others, this very clear message is needed that it’s not enough that there is a change of government, that the same real reforms, re. an election, to increase the level of trust [is needed], otherwise it will end badly [those loans won’t be repaid]. Because the Regions PartNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
GeeWhiz
Right here, where I helpfully quoted it for you:
"...this was just a spontaneous cry from the Ukrainians, who wanted to be free of their (elected Russian puppet) government."
The Yanukovich government was freely elected, in an internationally monitored, legitimate, and democratic election, and Yanukovich was not there simply at the will of Russia to be a puppet. Your parens around 'elected Russian puppet' means you really don't think it was a yanno - real election, nor a real national government.
Did you SAY exactly "it was OK to have a coup because it wasn't a real independent government"? No, you did not. Did you imply it, have you been implying it, and do you mean it? Yes, you do.
Are you Geezer, resorting to weak rhetorical squirms to claim you don't actually post what you post? Yes, you are.
Are you totally devoid of honor? Yes, you are.
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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Quote:
Kiev's case against the Berkut is widely seen as flawed, as reported by Reuters (you accept Reuters as a source, do you not?)
I said Yanukovich's security services were responsible, not the Berkut specifically. No, while some of the protesters died by AK-47 fire, probably from the Berkut, many more were killed by expert snipers with different bullets and more accurate weapons. Evidence points to an elite unit known as 'Alfa team', and the SBU (the Ukrainian secret service) - http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/30/exclusive-photographs
-expose-russian-trained-killers-in-kiev.html
Quote:
Quote:
democratically elected president
I fixed that for you, since you forgot that part
Pro-Russians like to hammer on about Yanuk being democratically elected, as if that forgives him of all his sins. he was democratically elected but thoroughly undemocratic, and the people overwhelmingly turned against him - even his traditional supporters. His party turned against him, voting to remove him from office, but still got roundly trounced at the presidential elections that followed the revolution - receiving 3% of the vote. Such is the stain of Yanukovich - the man is reviled across Ukraine. Pro-Russians who talk about this deposed Russian puppet as if he is some kind of legitimate-leader-in-exile are living in a Russian propagandist's fantasy land.
Quote:
your so-called "free and fair" elections did not include a significant portion of the nation which was unwilling to accept the undemocratically-appointed leaders
The elections did not include a small but significant part of the nation that had been invaded and occupied by a Russian proxy. There's no evidence that 'the people' in rebel-occupied Donbas rejected the Kiev government (and there still isn't). Many in fact would have voted in the elections, but the separatists STOPPED them.
Quote:
"We" have the right to meddle on any nation, to depose elected officials for specious reasons
Not specious reasons - Yanukovich had started murdering unarmed protesters. And yes, there is a degree of paternalism in the US, a mature (although not perfect) democracy helping a young democracy to replace an undemocratic leader and restart the democratic process. You can howl about the USA having a hand in the formation of the interim government, and to some extent you are probably right, but the proof of the pudding is in the free and fair democratic elections that took place just a few months later - where Ukrainians CHOSE THEIR OWN president. If that's meddling, that's very constructive meddling.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Quote:
Did I say the Poroshenko vote was democratic? No? Were you wrong, lying or stupid?
So basically you're saying that the Yanukovich election was also undemocratic (as was Poroshenko's). A pox on both their houses, correct?
If that's what you're saying, please explain how both elections were non-democratic.
Be specific.
"Compare and contrast" would be nice, as well as reference to internationally-accepted norms for election operations.
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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.
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Quote:Too bad you didn't get to the end of the sentence where I asked "correct"?
One doesn't have to read any further than, "so basically you're saying that..." to know how full of bias and negative spin what follows will be. Tragically dim.
I DID ask for correction if my interpretation was correct or not. Without your clarification, how can I understand what you're saying?
As far as I can tell, the situation is that I'm seeking clarification and you're refusing to explain your detailed viewpoint on the flaws of both elections, about which you've been obdurately obscure.
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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.
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"Yanu was a Russian puppet, there to do Putin's bidding."
So he WASN'T freely, democratically and legitimately elected by the Ukrainian people?
And he DIDN'T have 50% popular support at the time of the coup?
Are those your excuses to legitimize a coup?
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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Quote:
So he WASN'T freely, democratically and legitimately elected by the Ukrainian people?
As I told Sig, being democratically elected does not forgive all the crimes Yanuk committed. Nor does it mean the people don't have the right to rise up against him.
Quote:
And he DIDN'T have 50% popular support at the time of the coup?
Ha!
It's not personal. It's just war.
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"He was the Russian Puppet that won the election."
He was the legitimate elected leader - right?
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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