Minimum Wage
POSTED BY: Trixy
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 22:48
VIEWED: 10274
PAGE 7 of 8
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Can you tell us the difference in minimum wages from burger flipper, to say, warehouse worker? Looks like burger flippers are about $16.87 per hour, but the other data I did not find in that link you provided. What is min wage for a receptionist? Retail clerk? Construction worker? Bus Driver?
I dont know. Do you want me to trawl through 10 different awards to find information that you can find as easily as me because I dont keep that information in my head, not working in those industries.
Quote:
You also say the minimum wage refers to starter jobs, non-career jobs. These would be jobs that everybody knows are not "living wage" jobs, right? Spending an entire lifetime in one of these jobs is not feasible, right? And is not intended to be. Why would you expect a teenager living at home, with mommy and daddy paying all the grocery costs, fuel costs, insurance, room and board to be making a "living wage" when there is no expenses for them to pay?
You make a lot of assumptions here, buddy. Not everyone doing base level jobs are living at home with mummy and daddy while studying at night to become an accountant or whatever fantasy you have about how everyone lives. Not everyone has a mummy and daddy to support them. Some people have no supports, have to do it on their own, have families to support, have rent to pay and take what they are able to do. Life kicks out a variety of circumstances that people have to contend with. Some move on to better paid jobs, some stay in low paid jobs all there life. In the rarified air you clearly breathe, have you never met the 60 year old cleaner or factory worker or taxi driver or ditch digger who has always worked in those kind of jobs. And had a family, paid rent/mortgage.
So you have some fantasy about how it should be in a perfect world, with everyone dragging themselves up by the bootstraps and working numerous jobs. But the issue is that employers shouldn't treat people like slaves. If you put in work, any work, you deserve to be paid a reasonable wage. Businesses can and do factor that in to their overheads. If you can't afford to pay the wage, your business clearly cannot afford the employee.
And once again, a minimum wage does not prevent or deter people from bettering themselves. People do what they are capable of. Paying people shitty wages is one major contributor to the cycle of poverty. It's a kind of modern feudalism.
http://theprogressivecynic.com/2014/05/13/neo-feudalism-captures-the-u
nited-states/
Quote:
The American serfdom suffers under wage stagnation, cuts in social services, an epidemic of joblessness, and a complete lack of influence on their “elected” officials. A vast majority of the American people is stuck just making ends meet and putting food on the table, while their employers take all of the gains of their productivity. In many cases, these neo-serfs are stuck in crippling debt and have no job mobility, thus are as stuck as any share-cropper or indentured serf in the past.
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You know, the right wingers detest Mao for (among other tings) removing wages and putting everyone on the same system of work-credits, whether or not they were old, disabled, or ill. It truly was a case of 'work or die'. And yet, here they are, advocating something even worse. Because they want pay to be exactly whatever the business is inclined to provide. So business can be exactly like a Marianas Islands sweatshop or a Mexican maquiladora, where even children 'get' to work for less wages than the cost of the food they need to buy.
Let's hear it for business rights and benefit!
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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It really is about the fantasy that free enterprise will magically make things work out for the best if left to its own devices. The magic of the market. The trouble is that the market has no moral compass, as we see time and time again. If it works for a business to employ child labour in Bangladesh, well folks, let market forces sort it out. If it works for business to take advantage of a global financial crash to pay pittance for workers who then use welfare to top up their earnings so they can put food on the table, well that's the market (not afraid to rip off government when government is too stupid not to notice).
Dont worry, it'll all work out in the end. Little Todd will work three jobs to put himself through medical school, while his ol Ma mends clothes all day long in the basement where they both live and little Todd's long lost Pa will find his way home in the snow just in time for Christmas just as Todd graduates and there;ll be bells and singing. JUST LIKE IN THE MOVIES.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:Yes, actually, it is. The government prints the money and supports its value. It IS truly government money.
First of all, it's not the Govt's money to GIVE. It's the businesses which employ the individuals.Quote:I have no idea what the boils down to. At the same time that you say you don't feel that the EIC is welfare, you seem pretty resentful of some who get more than you.
I do agree, very much, that managing minimum wage is a very important part of keeping the economy healthy. Just raising it all willy-nilly is not good management, in my opinion.
I never really felt the EIC was a form of welfare before because whenever I claimed it for myself it was just a small tax credit, being a single guy with no kids. I have no doubt about it now that I see what poverty workers with kids get for EIC. I work with two women who have 4 kids and they more than double their take-home pay with a HUGE "refund" check in April. How do you suppose that feels for a guy like me. I know that these women would be completely unable to raise those children, and god knows their life is very tough even with $12,000 of refund money...... but my take home pay after taxes (which I still have to pay some at poverty level) is just over $10,000. They make that $10,000 as well, and not to insult them, but I easily do more work myself than the both of them do combined on any given night.
Minimum wage, especially in the last 5 or 10 years, is not a starting point for a lot of people. If you included the 6 weeks of paid vacation, the company match and profit sharing and the bonuses I got at my last job I might have actually been grossing $70,000 a year. I was laid off in December of 2009. I've worked two part time jobs for barely over minimum wage since that time and I've had this one for over 2 1/2 years now.Quote:All I'm getting out of this is that the minimum wage hasn't increased in keeping with the cost of living. But everybody knows that!
The problem is that the minimum wage has risen, to reduce your buying power. The min wage then was $4.25/hr, and now it has almost doubled. So the costs of goods and services is now almost doubled, but your take home pay has not. The increase in minimum wage is a large culprit.Quote:They'll have to raise their prices. The reason why that shouldn't be too much of an issue is that everyone will have to raise their prices just the same, so no particular business will suffer a competitive disadvantage.
My parents have a furniture restoration business that was thriving until around 2010. They don't know what they're going to do about the new minimum wage law saying that they have to pay somebody $10.00/hr in their state. They only have one employee and he's not even full time. That's how serious it is for them.Quote:
No, the poor will be buying less because a greater percentage of their "take home" pay will be needed to purchase the same goods, and those with money will be buying less, and only spending more when large deals present, like "Going Out Of Business" sales.
That lasts only as long as it takes production to ramp up to meet increased demand.
If you want to improve "the economy", you have to increase your customer base... by making sure that people have MONEY TO BUY. The genesis of the Great Depression was because too many people didn't have money to buy goods and services. That tossed people out of work, which caused even LESS money to be available for buying goods and services, which tossed even MORE people out of work.
But since manufacturing in the USA has been mostly offshored, if you want to improve the jobs situation in the USA, you have to raise protective tariffs on imported goods to give manufacturing a chance to revive. This isn't rocket science.
In any case, studies have shown that a rise in the minimum wage doesn't decrease the number of available jNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Can you tell us the difference in minimum wages from burger flipper, to say, warehouse worker? Looks like burger flippers are about $16.87 per hour, but the other data I did not find in that link you provided. What is min wage for a receptionist? Retail clerk? Construction worker? Bus Driver?
I dont know. Do you want me to trawl through 10 different awards to find information that you can find as easily as me because I dont keep that information in my head, not working in those industries.
Do you refer to awards as a term for pay?
Quote:Quote:
You also say the minimum wage refers to starter jobs, non-career jobs. These would be jobs that everybody knows are not "living wage" jobs, right? Spending an entire lifetime in one of these jobs is not feasible, right? And is not intended to be. Why would you expect a teenager living at home, with mommy and daddy paying all the grocery costs, fuel costs, insurance, room and board to be making a "living wage" when there is no expenses for them to pay?
You make a lot of assumptions here, buddy. Not everyone doing base level jobs are living at home with mummy and daddy while studying at night to become an accountant or whatever fantasy you have about how everyone lives.
No, not making assumptions. Asking questions. What do you call the pay level for those not earning "living wage" or not working to support a family, those with nothing to support nor fiscal responsibilities? What is that level of pay called?
Quote:
Not everyone has a mummy and daddy to support them. Some people have no supports, have to do it on their own, have families to support, have rent to pay and take what they are able to do. Life kicks out a variety of circumstances that people have to contend with. Some move on to better paid jobs, some stay in low paid jobs all there life. In the rarified air you clearly breathe, have you never met the 60 year old cleaner or factory worker or taxi driver or ditch digger who has always worked in those kind of jobs. And had a family, paid rent/mortgage.
So you have some fantasy about how it should be in a perfect world, with everyone dragging themselves up by the bootstraps and working numerous jobs. But the issue is that employers shouldn't treat people like slaves. If you put in work, any work, you deserve to be paid a reasonable wage. Businesses can and do factor that in to their overheads. If you can't afford to pay the wage, your business clearly cannot afford the employee.
And once again, a minimum wage does not prevent or deter people from bettering themselves. People do what they are capable of. Paying people shitty wages is one major contributor to the cycle of poverty. It's a kind of modern feudalism.
http://theprogressivecynic.com/2014/05/13/neo-feudalism-captures-the-u
nited-states/Quote:
The American serfdom suffers under wage stagnation, cuts in social services, an epidemic of joblessness, and a complete lack of influence on their “elected” officials. A vast majority of the American people is stuck just making ends meet and putting food on the table, while their employers take all of the gains of their productivity. In many cases, these neo-serfs are stuck in crippling debt and have no job mobility, thus are as stuck as any share-cropper or indentured serf in the past.
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No, not making assumptions. Asking questions. What do you call the pay level for those not earning "living wage" or not working to support a family, those with nothing to support nor fiscal responsibilities? What is that level of pay called?
6-string wage
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Do you refer to awards as a term for pay?
Awards are industry pay rates.
Quote:
No, not making assumptions. Asking questions. What do you call the pay level for those not earning "living wage" or not working to support a family, those with nothing to support nor fiscal responsibilities? What is that level of pay called?
I don't call it anything. And frankly I have no idea of what relevance it is to the discussion. What's your point? I'm struggling to find the purpose of your questions.
Junior rates apply to the under 21, but if you are over, assumptions can't be made about what someone's responsibilities are, surely. Although god knows how things work in the US. Do you get asked if you have a family to support before your rate of pay is set?
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I dont think I'v ever herd a GoP talking about lowering the % the investorz take out uv a bizness. Its often way more than the labor cost and coud be going to a single person.
1 alredy rich guy who happened to hear that a startup wuz in desperate need uv cash gets to hog up more money than hundredz or thouzandz uv peepl doing the real work.
----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early
http://www.nooalf.com
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It's hard for me to post the whole thing and read it again JSF, so I'm just going to answer your questions, if you please ;)
Q: Are you saying that, after taxes, your $4 could buy 5 gallons? You say the price of gas was $.80 per gallon? In 1996?
A: Yes... in 1997-1998, actually. At least by me it was. Actually, I remember car-pooling with my friends to buy smokes in Indiana and not even charging them anything. It was just a fun road trip. Back in late 199-Whatever it was, I was able to buy gas in Indiana for 76 cents a gallon and we'd be able to buy cartons of Marlboro smokes for 14 bucks plus tax.
Q: The problem is that the minimum wage has risen, to reduce your buying power. The min wage then was $4.25/hr, and now it has almost doubled. So the costs of goods and services is now almost doubled, but your take home pay has not. The increase in minimum wage is a large culprit.
A: I'm not exactly following this.
What I'm saying is that with Gasoline being the Largest barrier of entry into any business, I feel that it has risen in MAD proportions compared to Minimum Wage.
What I'm saying is that when I was 17 at my first job I could buy 4-5 gallons with my minimum wage. After taxes today, I barely get 2 gallons of gas for the same hours worth of work. (Ironically, although I've never been a bad worker, I'm like Insanely good at what I do today, so I feel I'm making even that much less because I'm twice the worker I was when I was 17)
Bottom line, the costs of goods has doubled today since only the early to mid 2000's.
I don't know about you, but I've always saved all of my reciepts. (I know, crazy right?).
I'll show you a ton of proof that prices on ordinary "neccity type goods" have nearly quadrupled since the late 90's. It's easy to miss that when the price of technology is always falling the other way at an equal pace. ;)
Q: Are you arguing that the min wage increase WILL hurt small businesses, or WILL NOT hurt? Your above statements seem conflicting, or unclear.
A: I know it will hurt my parent's business. I have to believe that it will hurt a lot of people's parents businesses. My parents aren't the only "stupid" ones out there that thought the Money Tree was going to rain down forever.
Unfortunately my parents never had a team of lawyers on retainer like GE so they could just 6Sigma their way out of this one......
Q: [Well, maybe not a question, but an awesome statement nonetheless... ;)] Very perceptive.
A: Whether you're making 5 bucks an our or 5 million bucks an hour at Minimum Wage, you still can't afford to shop where you work ;)
STATEMENT: No, the poor will be buying less because a greater percentage of their "take home" pay will be needed to purchase the same goods, and those with money will be buying less, and only spending more when large deals present, like "Going Out Of Business" sales.
A: I agree totally. They'll be spending "more" as an amount, but yada, yada, yada.....
Ask me again why we're even arguing about anything since you're just repeating back to me things I've been saying! :)
STATEMENT: Government control of prices? Because the government does such a good job of managing the economy and price controlling.
You're ABSOLUTELY right.....
It should be on the American People at this great turning point in our civilization that WE, THE PEOPLE make certain that these gasoline tax subsidies are working for US.
I love you JSF. Chances are we agree on 90% of everything even if there are some issues we are polar opposites on.
I think this one is one of the ones we can give at least a big 80% mutual approval of common ground if not nearly 20% more. :)
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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