Is anyone else still slightly creeped out by the Japanese?

POSTED BY: kpo
UPDATED: Sunday, September 6, 2026 21:47
VIEWED: 25231
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MAGONSDAUGHTER

Saturday, October 11, 2014 3:50 AM

How much are we really able to question authority in the west.

Military personnel are still trained to follow orders, otherwise armies just wouldn't function. In fact, being able to follow orders without question is a central tenet in enabling militaries to function. Refusing to follow an order or questioning authority can still lead to court martial and imprisonment (eg Bradley Manning) and not so long ago lead to death

As Frem said, all war is an atrocity. Most men would run and throw down arms in the face of certain death or injury, because lets face it, when we take up arms, it's generally not because the homestead is under attack. Armies rely upon men who have been trained to act not question in order to function.

KPO

Saturday, October 11, 2014 5:59 AM

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Most recently, it's come down to 'if we do it, it's morally grey

At this point I question your ability to understand basic written English.

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Somehow Turkey does not qualify. Are they too creepy and Muslim because as far as I can see they've had deocratic government longer than creepy little Japan, which has been fairly close to an Absolute Monarchy prior to the end of WW2.

Turkey began multi party democracy in 1945, just a couple of years before Japan. But Turkey has endured a series of military coups since then, which has hampered its democracy... I could go on, but basically no, I don't view Turkey as a mature democracy. If you check global democracy ratings/indices you'll find they agree with me.

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No apologies yet by the US government for their use of torture during recent military actions.

President Obama:
"I believe that waterboarding was torture and, whatever legal rationals were used, it was a mistake."
“Waterboarding is torture. It’s contrary to America’s traditions, it’s contrary to our ideals, it’s not who we are, it’s not how we operate”

It's not personal. It's just war.

1KIKI

Saturday, October 11, 2014 6:20 AM

Magons

FWIW I find the processes by which the cultures write off whole swathes of people different - but not the end result. The Japanese may actively deny things - but here in the US we have our rationalizations and cultural callousness at the ready instead. The homeless? Lazy. Victims of Katrina? Foolish. Iraqis? Muslim. NA natives? Whachagonna do? it's all in the past and anyway, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. And so on. It's how we - and they - justify doing what we want to do.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Saturday, October 11, 2014 6:34 AM

KPO>You're nitpicking history in an attempt to reinforce your own flawed argument that Japan is singular in it's denial of its atrocities.

The democratic ranking is nothing to do with maturity of democracy and I'm not sure that there is an index which outlines such a concept. You'll note that many 'immature democracies' are ranked highly, including many former eastern bloc states who are not only very recently democratic but were also referenced in a number of the unacknowledged atroctities that I provided links to. The rankings have nothing to do with maturity, but a number of political and social dimensions, including economy, health, gender, equity. And even on this basis, Turkey rates somewhere in the middle along side South Africa, and above Thailand, Indonesia, India and Malaysia.

so give it up, really. Your understanding of the Japanese culture is, at worst, racist and at best, just an ignorant view from someone so seeped in western cultural superiority that you can't acknowledge difference in other cultures without feeling weirded out by it.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Saturday, October 11, 2014 6:36 AM

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Magons

FWIW I find the processes by which the cultures write off whole swathes of people different - but not the end result. The Japanese may actively deny things - but here in the US we have our rationalizations and cultural callousness at the ready instead. The homeless? Lazy. Victims of Katrina? Foolish. Iraqis? Muslim. NA natives? Whachagonna do? it's all in the past and anyway, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. And so on. It's how we - and they - justify doing what we want to do.

Yup, along with us as well. Although Australian government has recently done the apology thing to Indigenous Australians, there is still lots of cultural denial that anything too bad took place.

KPO

Saturday, October 11, 2014 6:50 AM

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The rankings have nothing to do with maturity, but a number of political and social dimensions, including economy, health, gender, equity.

What did you think I meant by 'maturity' of a democracy?

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And even on this basis, Turkey rates somewhere in the middle along side South Africa, and above Thailand, Indonesia, India and Malaysia.

And way below Japan, which was my whole point...

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so give it up

I'm sorely tempted.

It's not personal. It's just war.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Saturday, October 11, 2014 7:00 AM

Yeah, clutching at straws now. Turkey was one example of many, many examples of atrocities denied by countries on all spectrum of the democracy index. It doesn't support your argument in any way, which appears to be that Japan is somehow unique in its denial because, you seem to be saying, it has a unique characteristic in that it is subservient to authority.

So here it is a nutshell. It's not alone in its denial and it's not unique in it's attitude to authority.

KPO

Saturday, October 11, 2014 7:39 PM

My position crystallised as this:

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Originally posted by kpo:
Does Britain deny or unacknowledge its role in the slave trade? Does America deny practicing slavery for the first 100 years of its history? Does Germany deny the Holocaust? Does Belgium deny its barbarous rule of the Congo? I could go on, but the pattern is clear: mature democratic countries are open and reflective about their history, even the horrible aspects. Japan is an anomaly.

You have not shown me a single mature democracy that is in as serious denial of its bad history as much as Japan. I know I didn't mention it at first but democracy is an important factor here because it ensures that government is open and transparent, and that there is freedom of speech and opinion - which ought to ensure a large degree of openness and honesty about a country's history.

So, to disprove my claim you would need to show:

1. A country that has a democracy rating comparable to Japan's
2. Atrocities committed by that country comparable to Japan's
3. Evidence that this country denies or fails to acknowledge its atrocities as much as Japan

None of the cases you have given so far come close to meeting these criteria.

It's not personal. It's just war.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Sunday, October 12, 2014 1:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
How much are we really able to question authority in the west.

Military personnel are still trained to follow orders, otherwise armies just wouldn't function. In fact, being able to follow orders without question is a central tenet in enabling militaries to function. Refusing to follow an order or questioning authority can still lead to court martial and imprisonment (eg Bradley Manning) and not so long ago lead to death

As Frem said, all war is an atrocity. Most men would run and throw down arms in the face of certain death or injury, because lets face it, when we take up arms, it's generally not because the homestead is under attack. Armies rely upon men who have been trained to act not question in order to function.

I keep seeing mentions like this and I am no longer certain that the context and slang is understood.
For any civilization or society which desires to survive, waiting until the actual land upon which the home is built (the "homestead") is tactically and strategically very stupid and extremely short-sighted.
Would it make better sense to wait until an attack upon Territory of Hawaii at Pearl Harbor, or see it coming and stop it before it gets that far, although it would be called an "attack" against the oncoming invaders?
Would it make better sense to wait until an attack upon the Twin Towers, Pentagon, and White House or Congress, or see it coming and stop it before it gets that far, although it would be called an "attack" against the oncoming infiltrators?
When pursuing a peace or combat campaign in the barrens of the Middle East, would it make better sense to find the most valuable piece of land, or most useful piece of land, and try to defend it, or to find a vacant spot in the desert and dig in a defensive position, from which planning can sprout from, and greatly effective skirmishes can be controlled from?

You may be making snide remarks, or you might actually understand the wisdom, I'm not sure. If you were interested, thought I would help by pointing out the higher level of military opertions which you might have been making snark on.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Sunday, October 12, 2014 1:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
KPO>You're nitpicking history in an attempt to reinforce your own flawed argument that Japan is singular in it's denial of its atrocities.

so give it up, really. Your understanding of the Japanese culture is, at worst, racist and at best, just an ignorant view from someone so seeped in western cultural superiority that you can't acknowledge difference in other cultures without feeling weirded out by it.

Must agree. Not only as directed at kpo, but also many others with the same viewpoints.
As a reference, have you always been on the same continent/island, or have you lived on other countries for periods?

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