Is anyone else still slightly creeped out by the Japanese?
POSTED BY: kpo
UPDATED: Sunday, September 6, 2026 21:47
VIEWED: 25231
PAGE 4 of 20
moving along
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Rape of German women postwar
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A wave of rapes and sexual violence occurred in Central Europe in 1944–45, as the Western Allies and the Red Army fought their way into the Third Reich.[5] On the territory of the Nazi Germany, it began on 21 October 1944 when troops of the Red Army crossed the bridge over the Angerapp creek (marking the border) and committed the Nemmersdorf massacre before they were beaten back a few hours later.
The majority of the assaults were committed in the Soviet occupation zone; estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers ranged up to 2 million.[1][6][7][8][9] In many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times.[10] At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports,[7] with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath.[11] Female deaths in connection with the rapes in Germany, overall, are estimated at 240,000.[3][12] Antony Beevor describes it as the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history", and has concluded that at least 1.4 million women were raped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia alone.[13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany
denied by Russians of course
Ethnic cleansing of Germans from post war Europe
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It is estimated that between 12 and 15 million ethnic Germans, including children, were systematically expelled, tortured, raped, put in camps, starved, enslaved and executed after World War II from 1944-1948, and later. Their only crime was being German. These actions were many cases government sanctioned and done in full knowledge of the victorious allies. To date, no one has ever been held accountable, and most do not know or do not acknowledge this genocide.
http://justice4germans.com/2012/12/02/a-forgotten-genocide-the-systema
tic-ethnic-cleansing-of-ethnic-germans-in-post-war-europe/
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it is by far and away the norm for countries to minimize their own actions in wars and conflict and to maximize their victim status. Yes, and even America does it.
Yes of course most if not all countries spin their history to some extent, or at least shine a positive light on it. But to equate that to denial or mass unacknowledgement of genocide and war crimes on a massive scale is incredible. Does Britain deny or unacknowledge its role in the slave trade? Does America deny practicing slavery for the first 100 years of its history? Does Germany deny the Holocaust? Does Belgium deny its barbarous rule of the Congo? I could go on, but the pattern is clear: mature democratic countries are open and reflective about their history, even the horrible aspects. Japan is an anamoly.
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Did you check any of the links I provided?
Turkey, I mentioned - it is not a mature democracy like Japan. Indonesia ditto - and I doubt the unacknowledgement runs as deep. Russians (as far as I know) on the whole acknowledge the sins of the USSR, and consider themselves victims as well as the other peoples Moscow dominated. Algeria, it wasn't clear from the link whether the genocide has been covered up and denied or not.
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Yes, and even America does it. what seems grey to you as an american living on american soil probably does not seem grey to Native Americans
I am sure Germans agree that the firebombing of their cities was morally grey. I didn't say all the things the USA has done are morally grey - in fact I specifically said 'some of them'.
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quirky? quaint? amusing?
Have you been brought up in a box? Is that what you think about other cultures that you dont find 'creepy'?
You're getting carried away with your smug, liberal high-mindedness. Remember we were talking about particular cultural quirks: waiting for the little man to show green before crossing the road even on a deserted country road; everyone abandoning the beach on the 1st of September even though the weather is glorious because it is the 'official' end of summer. Yes, by themselves, I find these quirky, quaint and amusing.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
it is by far and away the norm for countries to minimize their own actions in wars and conflict and to maximize their victim status. Yes, and even America does it.
Yes of course most if not all countries spin their history to some extent, or at least shine a positive light on it. But to equate that to denial or mass unacknowledgement of genocide and war crimes on a massive scale is incredible. Does Britain deny or unacknowledge its role in the slave trade? Does America deny practicing slavery for the first 100 years of its history? Does Germany deny the Holocaust? Does Belgium deny its barbarous rule of the Congo? I could go on, but the pattern is clear: mature democratic countries are open and reflective about their history, even the horrible aspects. Japan is an anamoly.Quote:
Did you check any of the links I provided?
Turkey, I mentioned - it is not a mature democracy like Japan. Indonesia ditto - and I doubt the unacknowledgement runs as deep. Russians (as far as I know) on the whole acknowledge the sins of the USSR, and consider themselves victims as well as the other peoples Moscow dominated. Algeria, it wasn't clear from the link whether the genocide has been covered up and denied or not.Quote:
Yes, and even America does it. what seems grey to you as an american living on american soil probably does not seem grey to Native Americans
I am sure Germans agree that the firebombing of their cities was morally grey. I didn't say all the things the USA has done are morally grey - in fact I specifically said 'some of them'.Quote:
quirky? quaint? amusing?
Have you been brought up in a box? Is that what you think about other cultures that you dont find 'creepy'?
You're getting carried away with your smug, liberal high-mindedness. Remember we were talking about particular cultural quirks: waiting for the little man to show green before crossing the road even on a deserted country road; everyone abandoning the beach on the 1st of September even though the weather is glorious because it is the 'official' end of summer. Yes, by themselves, I find these quirky, quaint and amusing.
It's not personal. It's just war.
I had thought Germany denied the Holocaust. Copped to WWI and WWII, but had not to Holocaust.
One of the reasons Hogan's Heroes was reportedly a top comedy for their TV networks.
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Originally posted by Brenda:Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
I'm not suggesting that its healthy of them not to acknowledge the atrocities they committed during the war, just saying that it's not unusual or creepy
I disagree, I think a nation being in denial about atrocities committed on such a massive scale is unusual.Quote:
So a big ??? from me.
It's the slavish relationship the Japanese have with authority that worries me. Such unquestioning submission to authority makes me think of concentration camp guards 'just following orders'.
It's not personal. It's just war.
Not to cause an argument but the Japanese have been like this for centuries. It's burned into them so deep it will never leave. Not saying I understand it and I readily admit that I know little or nothing of their say prehistory.
Just thought I'd add that and also I am not creeped out by the Japanese and they didn't bother my dad and he fought in WW2 though in Europe.
I could be wrong that the Japanese ultra-high respect for authority led to (or facilitated) the atrocities they committed in the past, and their subsequent denial of them. It's just a hunch.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
it is by far and away the norm for countries to minimize their own actions in wars and conflict and to maximize their victim status. Yes, and even America does it.
Yes of course most if not all countries spin their history to some extent, or at least shine a positive light on it. But to equate that to denial or mass unacknowledgement of genocide and war crimes on a massive scale is incredible. Does Britain deny or unacknowledge its role in the slave trade? Does America deny practicing slavery for the first 100 years of its history? Does Germany deny the Holocaust? Does Belgium deny its barbarous rule of the Congo? I could go on, but the pattern is clear: mature democratic countries are open and reflective about their history, even the horrible aspects. Japan is an anamoly.Quote:
Did you check any of the links I provided?
Turkey, I mentioned - it is not a mature democracy like Japan. Indonesia ditto - and I doubt the unacknowledgement runs as deep. Russians (as far as I know) on the whole acknowledge the sins of the USSR, and consider themselves victims as well as the other peoples Moscow dominated. Algeria, it wasn't clear from the link whether the genocide has been covered up and denied or not.Quote:
Yes, and even America does it. what seems grey to you as an american living on american soil probably does not seem grey to Native Americans
I am sure Germans agree that the firebombing of their cities was morally grey. I didn't say all the things the USA has done are morally grey - in fact I specifically said 'some of them'.Quote:
quirky? quaint? amusing?
Have you been brought up in a box? Is that what you think about other cultures that you dont find 'creepy'?
You're getting carried away with your smug, liberal high-mindedness. Remember we were talking about particular cultural quirks: waiting for the little man to show green before crossing the road even on a deserted country road; everyone abandoning the beach on the 1st of September even though the weather is glorious because it is the 'official' end of summer. Yes, by themselves, I find these quirky, quaint and amusing.
It's not personal. It's just war.
I had thought Germany denied the Holocaust. Copped to WWI and WWII, but had not to Holocaust.
One of the reasons Hogan's Heroes was reportedly a top comedy for their TV networks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial
It's not personal. It's just war.
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All persons of Japanese descent were placed in to internment camps.
This is a good way to compare morality actually, as Japan had their own civilian internment camps: http://www.express.co.uk/expressyourself/96232/Torture-starvation-and-
hell-of-Japan-s-concentration-camps
I know which ones I would much rather stay in.
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I consider that an atrocity, the removal of these families liberties simply because they were Japanese and looked different.
'Atrocity' might be a bit strong, though it was certainly shameful and unconstitutional.
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Magon also referenced my own ancestors and for the American Indian there is no grey or in Canada either on our treatment.
Sure. I mentioned a couple of things I consider to be morally grey, but I wouldn't say everything is. Like slavery for example.
It's not personal. It's just war.
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It's been fascinating watch you move the goal posts in your argument to enable it make any sense at all.
Most recently, it's come down to 'if we do it, it's morally grey, if the creepy little Japanese do it, it's an atrocity.
Then there is justifying behaviours depending on whether you consider countries to be mature democracies or not.
Somehow Turkey does not qualify. Are they too creepy and Muslim because as far as I can see they've had deocratic government longer than creepy little Japan, which has been fairly close to an Absolute Monarchy prior to the end of WW2.
Speaking of creepy little Japanese, I read some of Weary Dunlop's biography a while ago. Weary http://australia.gov.au/about-australia/australian-story/weary-dunlop is something of a national hero here, due to his courage as a surgeon during his period on the Burma Railway. What struck me was the incredible racism in the attitudes towards the Japanese by the British and Australian, not because of their treatment, but it was about the Japanese being an inferior race. How dare they challenge the superiority of the British empire. Something about the way you are having this conversation reminds me of this because basically, I agree that the Japanese should acknowledge what happened in WW2, it's just the way you are arguing it which I find disturbing.
Interestingly enough, the Japanese were expanding their military empire same as everyone else in that period. Pear Harbour was an American base because why???? Why should Hawaii be part of the American empire rather than the Japanese one just because American decided to annex what had been a self governing nation earlier than the Japanese.
The Geneva Convention, which outlines the treatment of prisoners was never signed by the Japanese. They considered prisoners of war to be dishonourable as they were prepared to die for their Emperor. The Geneva Convention was only ever loosely followed. It went away towards some protection of prisoners, but was only followed haphazardly by the germans - didn't apply if you were Jewish, or Polish, or Russian. America has disregarded it in recent years, getting away with appalling treatment of prisoners of war (prisoners in general) because it doesn't recognise their status.
When I watched the Railway Man recently http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2058107/ he was tortured by the Japanese, you'll love this, using waterboarding. No apologies yet by the US government for their use of torture during recent military actions.
As for being subservient to authority, I'd say again that was a big feature of many collective cultures in the world, particularly Asian cultures who rely on lines of authority, including family. There is no doubt that these cultural values are not the same as western cultural values, and may seem peculiar to us, but they are the norm in SE Asian countries, and should you ever choose to visit any of these countries, you'd be advised to take note of the differences.
There are pros and cons associated with these kinds of values, does it produce more morally dubious behaviour? I'm not entirely sure when I look at the US, Britain and Europe and contrast them with Asian countries like Japan, South Korea, and Singapore.
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Were not many of the asian/oriental cultures based on a caste system? Not saying that the occidentals were not, but do you feel that this has any bearing upon the obedience/authority influence of their cultures?
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Not in SE Asia. It really is based upon Confucianism
from Wiki
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The core of Confucianism is humanistic,[4] or what the philosopher Herbert Fingarette calls "the secular as sacred". Confucianism focuses on the practical order inscribed in a this-worldly awareness of the Tian and a proper respect of the gods (shen),[5] with particular emphasis on the importance of the family, rather than on a transcendent divine or a soteriology.[6] This stance rests on the belief that human beings are teachable, improvable, and perfectible through personal and communal endeavor especially self-cultivation and self-creation. Confucian thought focuses on the cultivation of virtue and maintenance of ethics. Some of the basic Confucian ethical concepts and practices include rén, yì, and li, and zhì. Ren is an obligation of altruism and humaneness for other individuals. Yi is the upholding of righteousness and the moral disposition to do good. Li is a system of ritual norms and propriety that determines how a person should properly act in everyday life. Zhi is the ability to see what is right and fair, or the converse, in the behaviors exhibited by others. Confucianism holds one in contempt, either passively or actively, for the failure of upholding the cardinal moral values of ren and yi.
Historically, cultures and countries strongly influenced by Confucianism include mainland China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, Korea, Japan, and Vietnam, as well as various territories settled predominantly by Chinese people, such as Singapore. In the 20th century, Confucianism’s influence has been greatly reduced. More recently, there have been talks of a "Confucian Revival" in the academia and the scholarly community.[7][8]
Interestingly, the Confucianism ideals were most rejected by the Communists in this area of Asia because it did not square up with Marxist ideology.
According to wiki, it doesn't require subservience to authority, but loyalty.
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Loyalty
Loyalty (Chinese: ?, zhong) is particularly relevant for the social class to which most of Confucius' students belonged, because the most important way for an ambitious young scholar to become a prominent official was to enter a ruler's civil service.
Confucius himself did not propose that "might makes right", but rather that a superior should be obeyed because of his moral rectitude. In addition, loyalty does not mean subservience to authority. This is because reciprocity is demanded from the superior as well. As Confucius stated "a prince should employ his minister according to the rules of propriety; ministers should serve their prince with faithfulness (loyalty)".[26]
Similarly, Mencius also said that "when the prince regards his ministers as his hands and feet, his ministers regard their prince as their belly and heart; when he regards them as his dogs and horses, they regard him as another man; when he regards them as the ground or as grass, they regard him as a robber and an enemy".[27] Moreover, Mencius indicated that if the ruler is incompetent, he should be replaced. If the ruler is evil, then the people have the right to overthrow him.[28] A good Confucian is also expected to remonstrate with his superiors when necessary.[29] At the same time, a proper Confucian ruler should also accept his ministers' advice, as this will help him govern the realm better.
In later ages, however, emphasis was often placed more on the obligations of the ruled to the ruler, and less on the ruler's obligations to the ruled. Like filial piety, loyalty was often subverted by the autocratic regimes in China. Nonetheless, throughout the ages, many Confucians continued to fight against unrighteous superiors and rulers. Many of these Confucians suffered and sometimes died because of their conviction and action.[30] During the Ming-Qing era, prominent Confucians such as Wang Yangming promoted individuality and independent thinking as a counterweight to subservience to authority.[31] The famousNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME