I wanna do this one more time: Was Mal wrong when he shot that surrendering guy in Serenity?
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Friday, June 6, 2014 05:29
VIEWED: 19444
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however commendable (and it IS commendable) does not easily define EVERY situation you come across.
Few things do.
Even Jesus and one of the incarnations of Buddha killed people. And as philosophers they're thought to be the pinnacle of morality by a lot of people, whether or not you're at all religious. Both very anti-killing as well, I note.
AR's beliefs are valid, logically consistent, and a worthwhile endeavor. No killing at all would be a great goal for everyone. I'm not sure it's achievable - we kill to eat, and grow our food, we kill to defend ourselves from both illness and human and animal attackers. We kill some of our own cells every day, let alone terminate pregnancies for various fully justifiable reasons. Death and life are two sides of the same coin, just as light and dark. But as something to strive for both as a person and as a society, I can respect no killing, yes.
No-killing, as I said, balances with other workable moral frameworks out there. Morality can and often is relative, and sometimes an inflexible law is not sufficient to address all possible applications of morality. Sometimes, morality must be left up to personal judgement outside of law. Sometimes, a person who kills can and must still be innocent, and sometimes, even someone who commits intentional murder could still be considered free of wrong-doing.
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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:Quote:
however commendable (and it IS commendable) does not easily define EVERY situation you come across.
Few things do.
Even Jesus and one of the incarnations of Buddha killed people.
Jesus did? Was that in one of the apocryphal gospels, in his childhood? I vaguely recall reading about it, but I didn't think it was official canon, so to speak.
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AR's beliefs are valid, logically consistent, and a worthwhile endeavor. No killing at all would be a great goal for everyone. I'm not sure it's achievable - we kill to eat, and grow our food, we kill to defend ourselves from both illness and human and animal attackers. We kill some of our own cells every day, let alone terminate pregnancies for various fully justifiable reasons. Death and life are two sides of the same coin, just as light and dark. But as something to strive for both as a person and as a society, I can respect no killing, yes.
No-killing, as I said, balances with other workable moral frameworks out there. Morality can and often is relative, and sometimes an inflexible law is not sufficient to address all possible applications of morality. Sometimes, morality must be left up to personal judgement outside of law. Sometimes, a person who kills can and must still be innocent, and sometimes, even someone who commits intentional murder could still be considered free of wrong-doing.
I want to emphasize that I do not condemn all killing in all circumstances. I find abortion to be a tragic but justified killing, I wouldn't condemn anyone who killed necessarily in self-defense. I can get behind euthanasia if carefully crafted around consent and information.
I also understand mitigating psychological circumstances.
But any killing of people remains a tragedy and a violence on victim and perpetrator alike, to me. So if it is not avoided when not utterly necessary, I'm going to see it as a crime, as a perpetuation of abuse.
I really appreciate the discussion, even if we have different opinions.
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Jesus did? Was that in one of the apocryphal gospels, in his childhood? I vaguely recall reading about it, but I didn't think it was official canon, so to speak.
Well, he WAS a revolutionary rebelling against Roman rule and hypocrites in his religious community. He talked about trading in swords for plows, but he also told them to grab their swords when he went to turn out the money lenders in the temple.
He told his followers to go grab people from the streets who wouldn't follow him and kill them in Luke 19:27. "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"
A time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build. For everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under heaven.
Christian beliefs. Ecclesiastes.
Thou shall not kill is one of the ten commandments, but it's also pretty clear there are exceptions to the rule.
What's more, if you follow their logic that Jesus was an incarnation of the old testament God... Implications.
And yeah, the one you mentioned, Infancy Gospel of Thomas, though I'm not sure that one is recognized by church authorities.
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But any killing of people remains a tragedy and a violence on victim and perpetrator alike, to me. So if it is not avoided when not utterly necessary, I'm going to see it as a crime, as a perpetuation of abuse.
Sure. I agree.
Just I think sometimes it isn't necessarily wrong. Still sad though I suppose. Although I'm a bit too pissed off still about the soldier in question to really feel sad about his lost chances or for his family.
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Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:Quote:
Jesus did? Was that in one of the apocryphal gospels, in his childhood? I vaguely recall reading about it, but I didn't think it was official canon, so to speak.
Well, he WAS a revolutionary rebelling against Roman rule and hypocrites in his religious community. He talked about trading in swords for plows, but he also told them to grab their swords when he went to turn out the money lenders in the temple.
He told his followers to go grab people from the streets who wouldn't follow him and kill them in Luke 19:27. "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"
A time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build. For everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under heaven.
Christian beliefs. Ecclesiastes.
Thou shall not kill is one of the ten commandments, but it's also pretty clear there are exceptions to the rule.
What's more, if you follow their logic that Jesus was an incarnation of the old testament God... Implications.
Yikes.
Not being a Christian, I'm glad I don't have to try and reconcile his more peaceful messages with.. this.
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But any killing of people remains a tragedy and a violence on victim and perpetrator alike, to me. So if it is not avoided when not utterly necessary, I'm going to see it as a crime, as a perpetuation of abuse.
Sure. I agree.
Just I think sometimes it isn't necessarily wrong. Still sad though I suppose. Although I'm a bit too pissed off still about the soldier in question to really feel sad about his lost chances or for his family.
He was a criminal participant in murder. It's not sympathy for his plight that motivates my feelings, necessarily.
But I think we both understand each other's view points pretty well by now. Mine strains against emotional and practical limits, yours harbors the trappings of a vicious cycle. There is no easy or perfect approach that will satisfy everyone.
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That last bit was very well put, AGENTROUKA.
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Yikes.
Not being a Christian, I'm glad I don't have to try and reconcile his more peaceful messages with.. this.
In fairness, Oonjerah pointed out to me that Luke 19:27 is a parable where Jesus compares how people will have to look into his face on Judgement Day with that specific quote from a king who was doing all that killing...
but, uh, yeah. Judgement Day is some pretty hardcore blood bath torture stuff. And that's without getting into the tribulations, and the last battle against the army of the antichrist.
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But I think we both understand each other's view points pretty well by now. Mine strains against emotional and practical limits, yours harbors the trappings of a vicious cycle. There is no easy or perfect approach that will satisfy everyone.
Also agreed.
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Quote Bytemite quoting Jesus: He told his followers to go grab people from the streets
who wouldn't follow him and kill them in Luke 19:27. "But those enemies of mine who
did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"
I love this sort of thing. Sorry I'm late.
I am no Bible authority, but I had to look that up. 'Cause if Jesus
said that, it would have been a very famous part of his story.
Luke 19:11-27 The Parable of the Ten Minas.
Jesus is reciting the parable in which "A man of noble birth went to
a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return."
It is the nobleman ordering the killings. But yes, I suppose it is
common for readers to see this as an instruction from Jesus to his
followers. Probably it's what Luke heard/felt.
Matthew 25:14-30 also tells The Parable of the Ten Minas. Very
different from above.
In that version, there is no mention of enemies or killing; there
is a journey, no mention of being appointed king. I'd interpret
Matthew's version to mean that Jesus will die and then return.
... oooOO}{OOooo ...
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Quote:He's a coward, and a pisspot.
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
the last battle against the army of the antichrist.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:He's a coward, and a pisspot.
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
the last battle against the army of the antichrist.
Hmm? No, he actually rides at the front of what followers he has left against all the human followers of the anti-christ of which there are legion.
He then kills all his enemies by shouting at them with God's voice. It's pretty anti-climactic. Which after trashing the entire world and rendering it uninhabitable, and only a thousand humans survive the whole thing, I guess it would make sense for the earth's last gasp to be understated.
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Oh, I meant the Anti-Christ was a coward & a pisspot.
And stupid too, seeing as he'll do all this knowing his outcome in the matter.
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