So, Geezer, rappy, in your ideal world, what should happen?
POSTED BY: 1kiki
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 26, 2025 17:09
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Rappy
WHOA there fella'! Chill.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Rappy
WHOA there fella'! Chill.
Chill ?
I think you have confused Jong's response for mine.
Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.
" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But what about that lady that KIKI spoke to? It seems to me she lives a cramped life, subject to the whims of her (very elderly) mother... and that, after that, no support at all?
I don't know. Lots of maybes. Is she her mother's sole heir? What will her financial situation be after her mother is gone? Does she actually have the capability to take care of herself if she were out from under her mother's thumb? Does she have siblings who might take up guardianship? After her mother is gone, could she hire a companion to take care of the stuff she can't handle? She seems willing to try and make connections with other people. Could folks like KIKI become part of a circle of friends?
Pretty much every situation like this is going to have unique aspects. Makes it hard to propose an ideal solution, except in the most general terms.
"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
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That was the question I was going to ask. So, I have to take her situation at face value.
She doesn't seem to be getting support services like vocational, physical, rehabilitation, or occupational therapy. I presume it's deemed either too expensive to pay for, or not useful enough, or both. When she talked about her past she never mentioned siblings. Her ex is out of the picture. The one and only person she talked about who's currently in her life is her mother.
Personally, I don't think she can live on her own. The next day I talked with one of the workers at the store where I met her. (btw I complemented her on her outfit and her cap in particular, which is how we met.) This worker said she has a hard time dialing the cab that takes her around when she needs to get somewhere, and that's despite the fact that, according to the worker, she's known the cabbie well enough and long enough to have a mutual interaction where they kid each other. FWIW that's what I've seen with other people with brain damage. When a particular area of the brain is damaged, practice does NOT make perfect. Some things are just gone and won't come back. So, she has significant disabilities in handling life's essentials.
I personally have too many responsibilities to my own family, which includes elderly siblings and disabled youngsters, to take on any more. And I see my situation reflected around me - many people are working as hard as they can just to keep afloat. I don't expect there are too many angels who will be able to make the significant and long-term sacrifices it would take to ensure this woman's future.
So, if you wysiwyg her situation with the information I've added - What room does your ideal society make for her?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, if you wysiwyg her situation with the information I've added - What room does your ideal society make for her?
In my ideal society - assuming she had not previously made arrangements to pay for her care when she was no longer able to care for her self (Insurance, voluntary mutual assurance groups, etc.), and had no family or friends willing to take on the role of guardian - a voluntary charitable group would provide whatever assistance she needed.
"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
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http://feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/hunger-facts/hunger-and-po
verty-statistics.aspx
In 2012, 46.5 million people (15.0 percent) were in poverty
In 2012, 59.4 percent of food-insecure households participated in at least one of the three major Federal food assistance programs –Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (formerly Food Stamp Program), The National School Lunch Program, and the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children. [ix] Given the average household size if 2.55 http://www.marketingcharts.com/wp/traditional/american-households-are-
getting-smaller-and-headed-by-older-adults-24981/ the Federal government is supplying 70 million people with continuing food assistance.
Feeding America provides emergency food assistance to an estimated 37 million low-income people annually.
Now, this isn't an apples to apples comparison.
The statistics for Federal programs refers to HOUSEHOLDS. And while the website doesn't say whether they're a sole, major, or supplemental source of food, looking elsewhere, SNAP for example, provides about $168 per person per month for a family of 3. http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2226
Meanwhile, charitable organizations refer to PEOPLE. I find their statement hard to evaluate. It makes sense, knowing the mechanics of how they operate, that they're talking about PORTIONS or MEALS - ie, they provide 37 million individual MEALS per year. And while Federal programs are geared toward food insecurity, charities are geared toward low-income people.
I bring this up because there's nothing stopping people from donating to food banks and kitchens. And certainly the need is there. But of people who really NEED food, 70 million get ongoing government assistance every day, while private charities provide 35 million meals, or about 96,000 per day. In other words, people can't really depend on charity to survive.
So, do you think charity will provided for all people in need in your ideal society, or will many be allowed to slip into complete destitution a la Dickens?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, do you think charity will provided for all people in need in your ideal society, or will many be allowed to slip into complete destitution a la Dickens?
So, as I sort of expected, after asking what our opinion of what our ideal society would do, you ignore what Auraptor and I consider an ideal society, and impose your own opinions on us. How usual.
"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
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No.
But you seem to think that people will behave the way you want them to. Ideal society = ideal people. If you assume that people will somehow behave differently than they do now, or than they have in the past like Dickensian England, how do you propose they get to that new standard?
Meanwhile, I was evaluating how people like that woman I met would fare without public assistance ie solely on voluntary charity, as per your ideals. To do that I looked at figures: how many people are helped by voluntary charity, what is the total need, and, for comparison, what is the public effort. Voluntary charity is nowhere near meeting the need, or matching public assistance.
Do you have a problem with looking at the adequacy of voluntary charity in keeping people from starvation?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
No.
But you seem to think that people will behave the way you want them to.
Yep. You asked for my ideal society, so people would behave as I wanted them to.
Quote:
Ideal society = ideal people. If you assume that people will somehow behave differently than they do now, or than they have in the past like Dickensian England, how do you propose they get to that new standard?
A lot of it is in pretty standard libertarian philosophy. Folks who espouse libertarianism would be aware that it is their responsibility to provide for their future and the future of those for whom they are responsible. Seems to me that such folks would also be wiling to provide for folks of the same mind who, through no fault of their own, might have problems.
Quote:
Meanwhile, I was evaluating how people like that woman I met would fare without public assistance ie solely on voluntary charity, as per your ideals. To do that I looked at figures: how many people are helped by voluntary charity, what is the total need, and, for comparison, what is the public effort. Voluntary charity is nowhere near meeting the need, or matching public assistance.
Of course, you're looking at statistics based on a society where lots of folks consider it the government's, or society's, responsibility to take care of them. How well does that seem to be working?
Quote:
Do you have a problem with looking at the adequacy of voluntary charity in keeping people from starvation?
Nope. In my ideal world, the vast majority of folks would understand that it was their responsibility to plan to have something in place to take care of themselves when they couldn't, and that voluntary associations would be in place for the folks whose plans didn't work out.
And KIKI...
In YOUR ideal society, how would people such as your friend be cared for?
"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
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So, you base your society on a notion that everyone thinks just like you. That doesn't sound like freedom. Meanwhile, the societies with the greatest government input and the highest taxes have the longest lifespans, highest standards of living, most educated populations, and highest happiness indexes
http://unsdsn.org/resources/publications/world-happiness-report-2013/
The report identifies the countries with the highest levels of happiness:
Denmark
Norway
Switzerland
Netherlands
Sweden
... I think that compares well to meager charity left-overs any day.
In my ideal society everyone would be paid the full value if what they actually produce. There would be no 85 people controlling 50% of global wealth, while billions toil in poverty. People would be able to have personal financial security based on a reasonable amount of work. But people would also recognize that some burdens are too great for an individual, or a family. And the things that the woman needs - therapy, a job she can do, a society where she's included - would be available to her.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis
OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."
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