Map of the Verse discussion
POSTED BY: jewelstaitefan
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 08:33
VIEWED: 49136
PAGE 13 of 18
Yeah, except none of the other planet descriptions I've seen include that mention. I think it was included for a reason.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Not to change the subject, but Yellowjacket has been telling me about a discussion concerning Beaumonde, and its position in the Verse -- namely that many think it should be in Blue Sun instead of Kalidasa. He asked me what I thought about moving it to Blue Sun. Well, I can't. That's an authority level way above me. If it was a fan-created world, it would just be a matter of getting the creator's permission. But Beaumonde is an "official" world that was created by Joss & Co., placed by QMx, and approved by Joss & Co. It would take that level of approval to relocate it -- and that would throw a serious monkey in the wrench of the set that is the Map, the Atlas, and TVIN.
How about this? Think of Kalidasa on the opposite side of its orbit around White Sun, if not actually placing it there. Remember that it's going to be there in 665.5 years anyway. And this makes sense for a number of reasons:
1. It's the star's existing orbital path. It's still 121 AU from White Sun. This just puts it 59 AU from Blue Sun, instead of 301 AU from Blue Sun.
2. The actual geography of the Verse doesn't change. Remember that the whole Verse is in constant motion. While these large and very large orbits might as well be thought of as fixed for story/episode/RPG campaign purposes, the bodies in these orbits are moving through their orbits.
3. Relevant to #1 and #2, none of the planets' orbits will change. No changes will need to be made to TVIN, other than perhaps the picture on the cover. But then that could remain and we (Yellowjacket and I) could add a page or two in the first part (before White Sun) or at the end before the Afterword, describing Kalidasa's "new" position.
4. Right now, with the Map configuration, Blue Sun isn't just on the Rim. It's practically in interstellar space. It's so far from the rest of the systems that ships must have one hell of a fuel capacity if they want to travel from Blue Sun to any other Verse destination.
5. Since Beaumonde is an outer planet of Kalidasa, it's much closer to Blue Sun through half its orbit cycle (23 of 46.06 years). For "story" purposes, Beaumonde's position is essentially fixed. Would it help the travel estimates if we said it was at its closest approach to the Blue Sun system at the time of "the present?"
How does that sound?
J. Chris Bourdier
The Verse In Numbers
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I don't have my Map handy. Can you check what is the minimum distance from Beaumonde to Lilac or Haven? With Beaumonde at max orbital distance from White Sun and Lilac/Haven at closest distance to White Sun? And also from Beaumonde to Miranda? BDM had BDH traveling Lilac to Beaumonde, then to Haven, then Miranda, then Mr. Universe.
IIRC Mr. Universe is still in between them.
From Mal's line in BDM they need 10 hours to get from Lilac to Beaumonde, at velocity/acceleration possibly less than max - not really a hurry, right? In Safe, 10 hours is the time needed to get to Greenleaf at max accel/decel (Book is bleeding out). Is your new Beaumonde position near enough to Lilac to be less than or approximately close to this distance?
Quote:
Originally posted by ElectricLion:
Not to change the subject, but Yellowjacket has been telling me about a discussion concerning Beaumonde, and its position in the Verse -- namely that many think it should be in Blue Sun instead of Kalidasa. He asked me what I thought about moving it to Blue Sun. Well, I can't. That's an authority level way above me. If it was a fan-created world, it would just be a matter of getting the creator's permission. But Beaumonde is an "official" world that was created by Joss & Co., placed by QMx, and approved by Joss & Co. It would take that level of approval to relocate it -- and that would throw a serious monkey in the wrench of the set that is the Map, the Atlas, and TVIN.
How about this? Think of Kalidasa on the opposite side of its orbit around White Sun, if not actually placing it there. Remember that it's going to be there in 665.5 years anyway. And this makes sense for a number of reasons:
1. It's the star's existing orbital path. It's still 121 AU from White Sun. This just puts it 59 AU from Blue Sun, instead of 301 AU from Blue Sun.
2. The actual geography of the Verse doesn't change. Remember that the whole Verse is in constant motion. While these large and very large orbits might as well be thought of as fixed for story/episode/RPG campaign purposes, the bodies in these orbits are moving through their orbits.
3. Relevant to #1 and #2, none of the planets' orbits will change. No changes will need to be made to TVIN, other than perhaps the picture on the cover. But then that could remain and we (Yellowjacket and I) could add a page or two in the first part (before White Sun) or at the end before the Afterword, describing Kalidasa's "new" position.
4. Right now, with the Map configuration, Blue Sun isn't just on the Rim. It's practically in interstellar space. It's so far from the rest of the systems that ships must have one hell of a fuel capacity if they want to travel from Blue Sun to any other Verse destination.
5. Since Beaumonde is an outer planet of Kalidasa, it's much closer to Blue Sun through half its orbit cycle (23 of 46.06 years). For "story" purposes, Beaumonde's position is essentially fixed. Would it help the travel estimates if we said it was at its closest approach to the Blue Sun system at the time of "the present?"
How does that sound?
J. Chris Bourdier
The Verse In Numbers
Not changing the subject at all. That's what this thread is for, for everybody to learn what we can from the evidence.
I'm curious, did you read this whole thread?
1. If 59Au is the correct distance.... Looks like it would take about 13.5 hours at Serenity's maximum acceleration rate to travel about 29Au, and then the same to decelerate, making it about 27 hours IF Serenity can hit velocity of 3.7Au/hr or about half the Speed of Light. 27 hours does not really conform to Mal's quote of 10 hours (on Lilac, telling Simon he'll be able to get off Serenity on Beaumonde in 10 hours time).
To conform to 10 hours, it looks like about 2 - 2.4Au distance with Serenity achieving 2.4Au/hr, or about 1/3 Speed of Light.
4. I disagree. Fuel is only needed for acceleration,
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by ElectricLion:
Not to change the subject, but Yellowjacket has been telling me about a discussion concerning Beaumonde, and its position in the Verse -- namely that many think it should be in Blue Sun instead of Kalidasa. He asked me what I thought about moving it to Blue Sun. Well, I can't. That's an authority level way above me. If it was a fan-created world, it would just be a matter of getting the creator's permission. But Beaumonde is an "official" world that was created by Joss & Co., placed by QMx, and approved by Joss & Co. It would take that level of approval to relocate it -- and that would throw a serious monkey in the wrench of the set that is the Map, the Atlas, and TVIN.
The only way to match what is in the movies is to move Beaumonde to the Blue Sun System. The map can't be changed because that is a licensed and it is being sold. However why can't TVIN and the Atlas be changed and an entry be added to explain the mistake on the map?
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
1. The actual distance is about 46.15au. That's measuring from Beaumonde's orbit to Blue Sun, assuming that we've moved Kalidasa through 180 degrees of its orbit around White Sun. Remember that the plane of the Blue Sun system is perpendicular to the plane of the Verse. While there will be some small variation due to parallax, all the Blue Sun planets can be thought of as being the same distance from the rest of the Verse.
4. A ship that was making very long journeys would want a higher cruising speed than one making shorter journeys. Also remember that the space between individual star systems will be relatively empty, and therefore safer at higher speeds. This means that the boost and braking phases of the voyage will be longer, or the thrust will be higher. That translates into more fuel being used. Hence, a larger fuel capacity.
I'm at work, so I don't have the Atlas of the Verse, Vol. 1 in front of me, but I remember Beaumonde being one of the worlds in it. Apologies if I'm incorrect. But assuming I'm right, moving Beaumonde from Kalidasa to Blue Sun will not only break the connection between TVIN and the Map, but it'll break that between TVIN and the Atlas as well. The Verse In Numbers will become a completely standalone document with no ties to canon. I don't have the authority to make that call. That's a Joss & Tim decision. Of course, if they approve it, I'll move Beaumonde where-ever they want it to be.
I want to write science fiction. I've wanted to since I was a teenager. But I never finish anything because I get bogged down in details. How big is the ship? How far is it from pilots' quarters to the fighter bay? What would you see if you were looking out the starboard landing deck? What's the room layout of the captain's quarters? What is the combination of the captain's safe in This Side of Paradise? How many people and what supplies will fit in a lifeboat? What will happen to a Kryptonian if he's without sunlight for a week? What do the main characters floating van and motorcycle look like? What can the ship's autodoc not do? And so on...
For me, these questions have to be answered before I start writing. So I spend ungodly amounts of time making notes, drawing deck plans, and making incomprehensible tables of figures -- and I don't write much. (For all of you, TVIN is a 350+ page book with beautiful page layouts designed by Yellowjacket. For me, TVIN is nothing more than a monster spreadsheet.) Joss and Tim don't have this problem. When they come to a detail, they make it up on the fly. If they can't remember that detail later on when they need it again, they make up a new one, and move on. In episode 1 of Serenity, Beaumonde is 10 hours from Lilac. In episode 7, it'll be a week. In episode 20, an hour. In episode 30, they'll be on opposite sides of the Verse, and months apart. And in episode 35, they'll be on opposite sides of the Verse, but only two hours apart for one of Serenity's shuttles. Joss has said (I think it was Joss) that the Serenity moves at "the speed of plot." Well, we tried, but we can't map "plot."
I think the best move is still to move Kalidasa through 180 degrees of its orbit so that it's between White Sun and Blue Sun. That will cause the least disruption to the Verse's current layout. Travel times and distances from the worlds of Kalidasa to the worlds of White Sun, Georgia, and Red Sun will all remain the same. Travel times and distances from the worlds of Blue Sun to those of White Sun, Georgia, and Red Sun will all remain the same. Travel Times and distances between the worlds of Blue Sun and those of Kalidasa will become reasonable.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by ElectricLion:
1. The actual distance is about 46.15au. That's measuring from Beaumonde's orbit to Blue Sun, assuming that we've moved Kalidasa through 180 degrees of its orbit around White Sun. Remember that the plane of the Blue Sun system is perpendicular to the plane of the Verse. While there will be some small variation due to parallax, all the Blue Sun planets can be thought of as being the same distance from the rest of the Verse.
Let's accept 46Au for now. That would make it about 24-27 hours at Serenity's maximum accel/decel rate.
Blue Sun would be only similar relative distance when it is positioned perpendicular to White Sun, which would be what? 500 years or so?
It would need to be close to the plane of the other orbits to be positioned closest to Kalidasa (or farthest, depending upon Kalidasa's position).
Quote:
4. A ship that was making very long journeys would want a higher cruising speed than one making shorter journeys.
Can't cruise higher than 7.2Au. About 23-28 hours is what Serenity would need to get near that, at her max rate of accel/decel, assuming she could attain a velocity near that. That covers a distance of 81-100Au. That leaves still a bunch of coasting time to get across the Verse before starting to decelerate. In this instance, anything between 200Au and the width of the Verse is using the same amount of fuel.
Quote:
Also remember that the space between individual star systems will be relatively empty, and therefore safer at higher speeds. This means that the boost and braking phases of the voyage will be longer, or the thrust will be higher. That translates into more fuel being used. Hence, a larger fuel capacity.
I think the best move is still to move Kalidasa through 180 degrees of its orbit so that it's between White Sun and Blue Sun. That will cause the least disruption to the Verse's current layout. Travel times and distances from the worlds of Kalidasa to the worlds of White Sun, Georgia, and Red Sun will all remain the same.
Kalidasa to Core, ok. Kalidasa to Georgia or Red will change to opposite, unless you bring Georgia and Red 180 degrees along with Kalidasa.
Quote:
Travel times and distances from the worlds of Blue Sun to those of White Sun, Georgia, and Red Sun will all remain the same. Travel Times and distances between the worlds of Blue Sun and those of Kalidasa will become reasonable.
From Blue Sun to Core, Red, Georgia, agreed no change.
46 Au from Beaumonde to Blue Sun worlds of Haven, Training House, Lilac for 24-27 hours doesn't exactly jive with 10 hours.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The linkys I posted in the OP for The Verse In Numbers do not seem to get me there.
Does anybody have a current valid linky for TViN?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:http://pics.fireflyprops.net/TVIN-2.01.pdf
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
The linkys I posted in the OP for The Verse In Numbers do not seem to get me there.
Does anybody have a current valid linky for TViN?
Version 2.01 - July 2012 - Updates and corrections made to the ‘Timeline’. ‘KD-FA’ added to Dragon’s Egg L4 (Castaways) and numerous asteroids added to ‘Halo’ of the White Sun System
http://pics.fireflyprops.net/PACE-ARC-2.0.pdf
Astrogation Reference Charts carefully extrapolated from J. Chris Bourdier’s White Paper
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
You do know that according to QMx, the fastest ships in the Verse are the great big Dortmunders, and they can go only 10% of light? Serenity's top speed is supposed to be somewhere around 7%. The arks from Earth made the 40 LY journey in 120 years because they were frakking hauling some gorram ass at an unheard-of 34% of light.
And I need to remind you that for all the focus on Beaumonde, the only way to make Beaumonde-to-Lilac work is to break something else.
AND... Beaumonde is too populous to work as a rim world. The entire population of the Blue Sun system is only 15 million after the loss of Miranda.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME