What Will It Take for Us to Get Back to Being a Decent Society?
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Saturday, April 25, 2026 00:05
VIEWED: 18057
PAGE 6 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
The decline of the American economy started in the LATE 60's, specifically 1968-'69, after the inauguration of Nixon, when he floated the price of the dollar against gold.
Or it could have been this: "... and the minimum wage has been allowed to drop 30 percent below where it was in 1968, adjusted for inflation" - the decline of the minimum wage.
It could have been this "Taxes have been cut on the rich ..." when the top tax bracket went from the 90% range down to the 20s, starting in the 60s.
Or it could have been more global, literally, factors, as other countries recovered from WWII.
Further, you seem to equate 'the dollar' with 'the economy'. It would be interesting to me if you would make that explanation.
My measure of an economy is the level of production of essential goods. When a country no longer manufactures needed items, either for domestic use or for export, or both, it becomes dependent on imports. And if it's not exporting manufactured (value added) goods, it's exporting raw materials to other countries, if its exporting at all.
So, no, I don't accept your assumptions about either the date, or the cause.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Some things are out of the control of governments. Manufacturing and other industries are moving from wealthy countries where labour costs are at a premium to labour rich - economically poor countries, where large rural workforces move to find work in urban areas when farming becomes less intensive work.
The world has cycles, some of which are impossible to stem or change.
Yes, and previously, we thought to bring the citizens of the economically poor to the US to work. You might recall how that turned out.
Just because it's out of sight now doesn't mean it was ethically acceptable then, or even that it was a good economic move. Well done Big Business, for short sighted gains on the profit margin, they screwed up the most powerful capitalist nations in the world and hamstrung global economic growth and technological progress for decades.
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Quote:- Siggy
Well, since you suggested that we should be like the old west
Nope. I never said nor implied any such thing.
Swing, miss. And quite frankly, if you can't get THAT right, then why should I even bother ?
Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.
" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall
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Magons
"Do I buy into the ruthless mindset? I can make lots of money, have a good life. Or do I practise humanity and speak out when I see wrong? Chances are I'll be unemployable, washed up.
What should I do? What would you do?"
Fortunately, unlike the temps who come through, I have a well-paying job in an area that helps make the world a better place. And then I was a union steward and negotiator for 15 years. I recently gave it up, but am still working behind the scenes to provide history, crunch numbers, gather data ... Plus I'm a member of some whistle-blowing organizations. It's trench warfare, but it's what I can see to do in lieu of solving the more global problem of greedy owners v the struggling rest of us.
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"Now we have the proud distinction of being a former manufacturing powerhouse that imports more than we export, and every bit of those imports is covered in blood. ... We decided to go down the path towards oblivion."
That sums it up for me. However, there's another factor: any hierarchical system where wealth concentrates in the hands of a few is a positive feedback system. The rich can rule to make themselves richer, which makes their rule stronger, which makes them richer ...
Obviously, as you've pointed out, this can't go on indefinitely. But the seed is in the structure itself.
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Frem
Your history seems skewed, especially when it comes to the northern countries and fascism. Finland had an alliance with Nazi Germany. Sweden maintained official neutrality but had close business ties with Nazi Germany, that Germany depended on for its war effort. "Nevertheless, the Swedish neutrality during World War II has been much debated and challenged. Despite the British naval blockade of Nazi Germany and the official proposed intentions from the Swedish government to maintain political neutrality, Sweden exported iron ore to supply Nazi Germany's war industry via the Norwegian port of Narvik. --- Nazi Germany's war industry's dependence on Swedish iron ore shipments ..." Only Norway actively resisted Nazi Germany. Iceland was neutral, and was the only country in the area to not have a direct connection in either direction with Nazi Germany.
"Not that it'd break my heart even a little to see em strung up from the lampposts like demented little xmas ornaments, mind you."
Quite an image. I know someone who went through such a situation. They recall seeing people hung on lampposts, not to strangle, but the be cut by anyone with the urge. Rightly or wrongly, those men and women died the death of a thousand cuts. Under those circumstances, I can imagine that justice would be too slow for the movement. I'm sure many innocent people did and would die.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
The decline of the American economy started in the LATE 60's, specifically 1968-'69, after the inauguration of Nixon, when he floated the price of the dollar against gold.
Or it could have been this: "... and the minimum wage has been allowed to drop 30 percent below where it was in 1968, adjusted for inflation" - the decline of the minimum wage.
It could have been this "Taxes have been cut on the rich ..." when the top tax bracket went from the 90% range down to the 20s, starting in the 60s.
Or it could have been more global, literally, factors, as other countries recovered from WWII.
Further, you seem to equate 'the dollar' with 'the economy'. It would be interesting to me if you would make that explanation.
My measure of an economy is the level of production of essential goods. When a country no longer manufactures needed items, either for domestic use or for export, or both, it becomes dependent on imports. And if it's not exporting manufactured (value added) goods, it's exporting raw materials to other countries, if its exporting at all.
So, no, I don't accept your assumptions about either the date, or the cause.
really complex answer, too complex for NOBC's rule: "No post should be longer than 1 screen."
I was in 11th grade in 1968. I SOLD gas for 22 cents a gallon. I sold cigarettes for 35 c a pack. MY first apartment, I paid $ 90 a month for a 1 bedroom (that was 1970.) My parents rented a rural 5 bedroom house in the woods for $ 90 a month. My wife and I lived on the minimum wage of $1.68 an hour, me working 2 half-time jobs as a student and her one. We live the same life style today, no better, no worse.
Inflation was happening, because of the Vietnam War, and it got worse in a very few years. The value of the dollar was (and still is) critical to everything in the American economy, inflation, cost of living. Inflation got worse, the price of gold went up to over $300 an ounce. (What was it last month, $1500 an ounce?) Dollar gets worth less, prices go up.
I maintain that those other things you cite are the results of that fundamental change, not the causes. They MATTER, yes, but they're the symptoms, not the disease.
One other cause you neglect: Lyndon Johnson ( Texan, friend of big oil guys ) eliminated the oil-depletion allowance- 1/3 of oil extracted was tax-free, to cover the cost of research and development and exploration. The oil companies raised prices in retaliation, profits went sky high. (Can you imagine? Oil companies weren't the most important item in the stock market. They didn't have the world's record highest quarterly profits every quarter back then.)
And maybe the 1974 Oil Embargo. After Israel won the Yom Kippur War in 1973, the OPEC countries turned off the oil tap to America for a while. There was the first Gas Shortage. There were lines in the streets everywhere, just to buy any gas that was available at any price. And prices went up, and never came back down. And THERE'S inflation, and increased cost of living, prices of everything went up because of increased transport cost and wages went up way more slowly, and never caught back up.
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NOBC - thanks for your reply. We seem to have an oddly parallel existence. At one point I too worked at at gas station. I don't remember the price, sadly. I DO remember that a semi could fill its tanks for $40.
If you define inflation as 'too many dollars chasing too few goods', then I think it's easier to trace the imbalance over time. Is it a shortage of stuff, or an abundance of currency, or both? Probably Signy could weigh in fruitfully, b/c what I have to offer is a composite of my memory, and a rough draft of history, thrown against an internet search for obvious inaccuracies. But as I recall, the overall economy, and how it was reflected in daily life, experienced a slow erosion over time.
I come from the rust belt, and my history with the area is that in my early childhood, the iron/ steel industry employed over 100,000 people in a total area population of about 500,000. Remarkable to consider, I think. By the time I got into college, it was 50,000 in a population of maybe 800,000. By the time I was in my junior year, it was down to about 20,000, and by the time I graduated, all the steel mills had closed. Not only did the steel mills close, but the Ford axle plant had closed, two Trico factories, a couple of chemical plants, and many many small machine shops and jobbers. So my early childhood was one of opportunity for all, and by the time I got out of college it had turned into a mean, hardscrabble job market where unemployment was high and people were desperate for work. To give you an idea of what MY generation came of age into - of all the cousins - all 8 of us born in a span of 10 years - 7 had to leave the state for work.
Now this isn't just a regional story, since I see it repeated over time and across the country in the auto industry, the coal industry, the paper and printing industries and very famously the textile industry (to name a few).
As my region sank, others boomed. But I would argue that except for the computer/ internet technology (which had a very short period of transcendence), many of these booms were speculative bubbles (like real estate). Meanwhile, the production of real goods continued to decline in the US as more industries were 'off-shored'.
And as the more recent crisis shows, business hasn't reversed this self-destructive path, and is MORE than willing to kill the goose that lays the golden egg - the goose being the worker/ (consumer), and the golden egg being goods/ (sales).
Gold and the dollar? Doesn't seem to fit into this process, except incidentally.
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1946:
Quote:
Why... here, you're all businessmen here. Doesn't it make them better citizens? Doesn't it make them better customers? You... you said... what'd you say a minute ago? They had to wait and save their money before they even ought to think of a decent home. Wait? Wait for what? Until their children grow up and leave them? Until they're so old and broken down that they... Do you know how long it takes a working man to save $5,000? Just remember this, Mr. Potter, that this rabble you're talking about... they do most of the working and paying and living and dying in this community. Well, is it too much to have them work and pay and live and die in a couple of decent rooms and a bath? Anyway, my father didn't think so. People were human beings to him. But to you, a warped, frustrated old man, they're cattle. Well in my book, my father died a much richer man than you'll ever be!
Today:
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In truth, the reality is somewhere in the middle. Housing for people who couldn't afford it led to the sub-prime mortgage crisis.
But at the same time, Maslowe's hierarchy of needs says that if a person is not so concerned about their immediate survival and if they're not playing the credit-card debt net-zero game, they'll be able to actually spend money on other stuff. If they can support their children at the same time and their children get a good enough education to get good enough work that they can build a life for themselves, then the system can self-perpetuate.
And that's what drives the economy. That's what creates economic growth.
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