Immigration reform: A step forward in Senate, a leap back in House?
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Sunday, May 11, 2025 13:43
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I'm proud to live in a nation of immigrants, and include myself as a child of an immigrant, although those people came many generations ago.
The story of the world is the story of immigration, as people migrate constantly throughout history. Our own language is a testament to waves of movement of people who transposed their cultures and their languages upon one another. That's what makes English one of the most durable, flexible and living languages in the world today.
Most people move to make better lives for themselves, usually only when staying is pretty unbearable - otherwise who'd bother (although there are a middle class of migrants these days who live away from their home culture purely for economic reasons).
Of course migrants should have the same health care status as people who were born in a country. Otherwise you get inequity in society.
Languages are easier to learn when you are younger. As you get older, it just gets harder. It's easy to demand that people learn languages of the new country, but sometimes its beyond the capabilities of older migrants to do so. Ever tried to speak another language to locals. It's humiliating as an adult to stumble through words. Kids do it a lot easier.
Migrants will always flock together. Being in an alien culture is hard and unsettling for most people. When I was a migrant in a country with a pretty similar culture, I still sought out my own kind. It's kind of natural.
Places where there has been lots of migration can be dynamic, amazing and/or scary and disfunctional. They are usually a hell of lot more interesting than monocultures in my view. I think most invention, most of the amazing ideas, inventions, philosophy has taken place when cultures merge, but its not always without cost.
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I'm proud to live in a nation of immigrants, and include myself as a child of an immigrant, although those people came many generations ago.
The story of the world is the story of immigration, as people migrate constantly throughout history. Our own language is a testament to waves of movement of people who transposed their cultures and their languages upon one another. That's what makes English one of the most durable, flexible and living languages in the world today.
Most people move to make better lives for themselves, usually only when staying is pretty unbearable - otherwise who'd bother (although there are a middle class of migrants these days who live away from their home culture purely for economic reasons).
Of course migrants should have the same health care status as people who were born in a country. Otherwise you get inequity in society.
Languages are easier to learn when you are younger. As you get older, it just gets harder. It's easy to demand that people learn languages of the new country, but sometimes its beyond the capabilities of older migrants to do so. Ever tried to speak another language to locals. It's humiliating as an adult to stumble through words. Kids do it a lot easier.
Migrants will always flock together. Being in an alien culture is hard and unsettling for most people. When I was a migrant in a country with a pretty similar culture, I still sought out my own kind. It's kind of natural.
Places where there has been lots of migration can be dynamic, amazing and/or scary and disfunctional. They are usually a hell of lot more interesting than monocultures in my view. I think most invention, most of the amazing ideas, inventions, philosophy has taken place when cultures merge, but its not always without cost.
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Quote:If anyone can claim to be the child of immgration, I suppose it's me, since hubby, father, and mother's parents are/ were immigrants. So if we're using that to establish the validity of our arguments, let's stop right there.
I'm proud to live in a nation of immigrants, and include myself as a child of an immigrant, although those people came many generations ago.
Quote:The story of the world is a story of mass migrations and occupations- the Mayans into North America, Mongols into Europe, Euopeans into Australia and the Americas, the Jews into Palestine. Unless your group, whatever you consider it to be, moved into absolulety virgin territory, it displaced others who were already there and millions- possibly hundreds of millions- of indigenous/ aboriginal people died, and languages and societies died with them. What perspective are you speaking from?
The story of the world is the story of immigration, as people migrate constantly throughout history. Our own language is a testament to waves of movement of people who transposed their cultures and their languages upon one another. That's what makes English one of the most durable, flexible and living languages in the world today.
What is the difference, if any, between these mass population movements, and "immigration" as you envision it? I think there is one, but I want to know what you see.
Let me know.
Quote:Tough. If I were to move to China, whose language is notoriously difficult to learn, I would expect to have to learn it. I might wind up in a English-speaking enclave'ghetto because it was more comfortable, but I wouldn't expect an entire nation to provide helpful English signs, menus, instructions, and interpreters everywhere I go. And I would realize that UNTIL I learned the language, I would be at a signifciant disadvanage, economically and socially in the larger society. Learning the language would be a priority.
It's easy to demand that people learn languages of the new country, but sometimes its beyond the capabilities of older migrants to do so. Ever tried to speak another language to locals. It's humiliating as an adult to stumble through words. Kids do it a lot easier.
In addition, if I were illegal, I would recognise my illegal status. I sure as hell wouldn't expect the host nation to suddenly forget that I transgressed their laws to move in with them.
In the other thread, I mentioned that my dad was bounced from nation to nation involuntarily during WWII. He made an attempt to learn every language where he landed, and it was tough learning Russian in a Siberian labor camp. But he did.
What you and NIKI are both arguing is the the identity of the immigrant. "Child of immigrants", "nation of immigrants". You see yourself as an "immigrant", but you see yourselves from the perspective of perhaps a few generations distant, and from the perspective of the dominant culture.
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Magons, everything you said.
Sig, Quote:
So if we're using that to establish the validity of our arguments, let's stop right there.
I don't think either of us are. I'm certainly not, nor do I think my individual situation would EVER be a reason to establish the validity of any "argument"/debate; it's immaterial.
When it comes to what you said about indigenous peoples, to me THAT smacks of "white-man's guilt" if anything does. I wasn't here for that; I believe we should make right any inequalities, be they those or inequalities to new immigrants, but I see a vast difference between a primitive native species being overrun by a larger force and America accepting its immigrants. If you come right down to it, what you described is the history of the WORLD; our species started somewhere, maybe a couple of somewhere but we'll never know; every migration since then has been one people taking over when they migrated. That to me isn't a valid argument about immigration in today's world. JMHO.
I do agree about the language tho', despite recognizing what Magons said. Traveling the world, it was admittedly embarrassing that in virtually every country, I saw foreigners trying to stumble along on the native language while the vast majority of Americans acted as if everyone else should learn THEIR language, and few had ever even tried to learn another. I know this is partly because in Europe, countries are smaller and closer together so there's a lot more travel in between, whereas we have this whole huge continent, which we share with Canadians who mostly speak the same language. When I traveled with my husband later in life, I brushed back up on my French (mom was a French immigrant and French was the second language in Afghanistan, so some of my classes were taught in it), and Jim and I even took classes in German before going back to Switzerland twice more. I did the best I could, and if we immigrated to another country, there's no way I would expect to be accommodated and not do my best to learn the language.
I realize it's a problem and there are nuances, especially for older immigrants. But I think we bend over too far backward in America, which may be my own prejudice, in fact I KNOW it is at least partly, but yes, it irritates me (maybe more than it should) when shop people talk to one another in Spanish while I'm being waited on, etc. I think we dissuade immigrants from learning the language by the amount of accommodation we offer.
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Quote:Then WHAT is the difference??? Is it a difference in scale? Is it a difference in who survives? Is it a difference in what language, culture, and economy survives?
but I see a vast difference between a primitive native species being overrun by a larger force and America accepting its immigrants.
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I don't understand where Obamacare or immigration intersect exactly.
My assumption was that illegal immigrants would continue to have the same access to insurance as they always have, which is to say none, and that they would continue to show up at the ER for free health care, as it violates doctor's ethics to send them away or deport them. Though not, apparently, to dump them out on the street or at a cheaper hospital.
This healthcare for illegal immigrants would thus provide pharmaceutical companies and the insurance industry yet another nonsensical reason to jack up costs. They could say one pill out of a few million that cost them maybe a dollar average each to research and produce should have a fair market value of 1000 bucks, and that a stay in the hospital overnight should bankrupt people.
America has the best healthcare system in the world. 9_9 I'm not sure it's actually immigrants who are the problem here.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
If anyone can claim to be the child of immgration, I suppose it's me, since hubby, father, and mother's parents are/ were immigrants. So if we're using that to establish the validity of our arguments, let's stop right there.
Geez, I'm not arguing to add validity to my argument. The only validity in my argument (or yours) has is that we are making it. End of story. My point was that we are all immigrants in my country, unless you count yourself descended from the indigenous peoples, and even they migrated far enough back.
Quote:
The story of the world is a story of mass migrations and occupations- the Mayans into North America, Mongols into Europe, Euopeans into Australia and the Americas, the Jews into Palestine. Unless your group, whatever you consider it to be, moved into absolulety virgin territory, it displaced others who were already there and millions- possibly hundreds of millions- of indigenous/ aboriginal people died, and languages and societies died with them. What perspective are you speaking from?
What is the difference, if any, between these mass population movements, and "immigration" as you envision it? I think there is one, but I want to know what you see.
Let me know.
whether it happens through violence, or happens peaceable, it happens and it continues to happen and will continue to happen. The more forced the migration, the more likelihood of conflict, but races living side by side or intermingling doesn't always result in conflict. How many people here can claim to be of a single race? Most people I know have a little of this and a little of that and are proud of their mixed origins.
Quote:
Tough. If I were to move to China, whose language is notoriously difficult to learn, I would expect to have to learn it. I might wind up in a English-speaking enclave'ghetto because it was more comfortable, but I wouldn't expect an entire nation to provide helpful English signs, menus, instructions, and interpreters everywhere I go. And I would realize that UNTIL I learned the language, I would be at a signifciant disadvanage, economically and socially in the larger society. Learning the language would be a priority.
Just because you have a take no prisoners approach to this doesn't make it the truth. Yes, you should make an attempt at learning the language of the country you live in, but not everyone will have that capacity. Worked with an older Eritrean lady years ago who'd been to class after class, and was just not capable of remembering a few words. This woman was an illiterate goat herder in her culture (or some such thing). No formal education, no capacity.
In my experience, older people struggle, youngsters have the capacity to speak like natives, and can be perfectly bilingual. Good on them, its great to be able to speak more than one language. I don't see the issue in that. I'm glad when language gets passed on from generation to generation. It's important to culture to keep language. The people you mentioned, who could speak English, but spoke Spanish in front of you were just being rude.
Quote:
In addition, if I were illegal, I would recognise my illegal status. I sure as hell wouldn't expect the host nation to suddenly forget that I transgressed their laws to move in with them.
I was actually referring to legal immigration. Illegal immigrants are another story, but man, they must be the most miserable bunch of people on the earth, don't you think. No legal status, no access to medical condition, exploited, reviled. I can't imagine anything worse.
Quote:
In the other thread, I mentioned that my dad was bounced from nation to nation involuntarily during WWII. He made an attempt to learn every language where he landed, and it was tough learning Russian in a Siberian labor camp. But he did.
Good on him. But not everyone will have that capacity. Not everyone can or should be held
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double trouble
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Quote:And.....? I guess I'm wondering... why bring it up, then?
Geez, I'm not arguing to add validity to my argument. The only validity in my argument (or yours) has is that we are making it. End of story. My point was that we are all immigrants in my country, unless you count yourself descended from the indigenous peoples, and even they migrated far enough back.
Quote:I'm not talking about "races", but economies, languages, stories, ethics, economies. IMHO, the difference between "immigration" and "colonization" is partly based on numbers, and partly based on technology. I had a very smart friend who once said There are no such things as nations, but language groups. Because people move, land is lost and gained, leaders come and go, but language stays the same Once of the things the British did when colonizing Ireland was attempt to destroy the language. So one thing to look for is which language survives.
whether it happens through violence, or happens peaceable, it happens and it continues to happen and will continue to happen. The more forced the migration, the more likelihood of conflict, but races living side by side or intermingling doesn't always result in conflict. How many people here can claim to be of a single race? Most people I know have a little of this and a little of that and are proud of their mixed origins.
In all advanced economies today, it's impossible to live side by side with your neighbors. You can't herd goats next to the cafe - you're either contributing to the larger society, drawing from it or -most likely-both. For example, when you said...
Quote:Hello?? Have you seen the hurdles that nations with universal healthcare set up to keep certain people out? If you're old, sick, a dependent, or disabled, you don't get in. I know, because we looked! But hey, I understand why. If they tried to provide healthcare to people who haven't been contributing their whole lives, and/or don't have a chance of EVER contributing, over time they would be swamped with immigrants just needing health care.
Of course migrants should have the same health care status as people who were born in a country. Otherwise you get inequity in society.
EVERY system today breaks. There is some limit, some flaw, some SOMETHING that can't absorb unlimited numbers of people. Look at the riots in Sweden. The immigrants are legal, and provided with a lot of assistance, but SOMETHING broke.
Quote:
One big problem is the lack of jobs. The national unemployment rate is about 8 percent, but the rate is at least twice as high in immigrant areas and four times as high for those under 25. But, said Nima Sanandaji, a Kurdish-Swedish author of several books on immigration who was born in Iran, remote areas in the north of Sweden have more people out of work, “but they are not throwing rocks and burning cars.”
Quote:So, on average, how do goat herders survive in a complex technological culture?
Just because you have a take no prisoners approach to this doesn't make it the truth. Yes, you should make an attempt at learning the language of the country you live in, but not everyone will have that capacity. Worked with an older Eritrean lady years ago who'd been to class after class, and was just not capable of remembering a few words. This woman was an illiterate goat herder in her culture (or some such thing). No formal education, no capacity.
Quote:Yes,
In my experience, older people struggle, youngsters have the capacity to speak like natives, and can be perfectly bilingual. Good on them, its great to be able to speak more than one language. I don't see the issue in that. I'm glad when language gets passed on from generation to generation. It's important to culture to keep language. The people you mentioned, who could speak English, but spoke Spanish in front of you were just being rude.
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Quote:
Hello?? Have you seen the hurdles that nations with universal healthcare set up to keep certain people out? If you're old, sick, a dependent, or disabled, you don't get it.I know, because we looked! But hey, I understand why. If they tried to provide healthcare to people who haven't been contributing their whole lives, and/or don't have a chance of EVER contributing, over time they would be swamped with immigres just needing health care.
Haven't got time to respond to all your post, but I just wanted to respond to this bit. There are two types of immigrants basically. One need to meet a whole host of criteria, you basically have to have the skills needed to come. The second are refugees, who may be old or ill. All who are granted status get healthcare.
Of course countries need to have a say over who enters and stays in their land. I have no problem with this, or putting limits on immigration. Personally I think the EU has made a blunder with its open border policy, but that doesn't diminish my stance that immigration can make nations greater rather than disfunction.
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