Immigration reform: A step forward in Senate, a leap back in House?
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Sunday, May 11, 2025 13:43
VIEWED: 2906
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Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I'm on a tear! 
I know you have more to do than track my schedule here, but this is my approximately once-a-week time here.
Will get back to you on this though, I think there is much in your answers to think about.
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I sincerely hope you do; the opportunity to have an ACTUAL debate seems to have almost completely vanished from this place. Little as that opportunity has ever been, I miss it more now than ever.
And yes, you are on a tear; if my comments in the other thread offended, I hope that, though offended, you'll think about them anyway.
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Quote:Okay. That leaves me unable to understand some of your motivations, but hopefully that will be cleared up with further discussion.
Uh, no, not at all. I've never believed in "white man's guilt" or whatever you want to call it, and I don't feel we should shoulder any "burden" because we screwed up. My government screwed/screws up all over the globe; I don't feel personally responsible.
Quote:Well, if people don't fill those jobs at the current shabby piecework rates, then theoretically the market will raise those payrates until people DO decide it's worth it.
I'm afraid we'll end up agreeing to disagree. In California, I am all too well aware of the fact that there are TONS of jobs "Americans" wouldn't be caught dead doing, period. Yeah, raising the minimum wage would make a difference, but not enough of one.
Quote:Why not? People should solve their problems where they are, rather than exporting them elsewhere.
I disagree. It's my opinion, from what I saw in my travels, that we'd be better off if we spread those "so many" around more, rather than let thousands of them die every day because they're crowded into inhuman conditions--and of course best of all, if we could stop OVERpopulating, and there it gets tricky, if not impossible. I have no answers; I merely believe that saying "hey, I've got enough room, you guys go die" doesn't work in the long run.
Quote:Have I mentioned that there is a critical shortage of water? I think we have come close to one actual PHYSICAL limit to our population at the current living standard.
This is still a gigantic country, and I believe there is lots of "room", economically as well, for lots of people.
Quote:How can we begin to deal with the population problem if we can't even address it within our own borders, where we actually DO have some influence?
I believe a large part of that "American exceptionalism", and whatever else has made this country great, is because of what a homogenous mix we are. My mother, her mother and grandmother all immigrated here from France shortly after the turn of the century. I don't feel I have any right to tell anyone else they can't be here, if you want to understand where my attitude comes from, simple as that. I don't think immigration is going to kill this country; yes, the world is over-populated already, my point is we need to POPULATE LESS, not decide which country gets to have less population.
Quote:Let me pop in a disagreement here- People moving to this country have assumptions, beliefs, habits, language. It is very difficult, even WITH support to set all of those aside: native prejudices Chinese think Koreans are sub-human), the role of women, view of justice and the rule of law, attitudes towards bribery and society and competition, etc etc. The climate, the food... everything ch
I guess if we're going to debate our different beliefs, I should address yours:
you would screen incoming people for criminal past and contagious diseases. Then you would TEACH THEM THE FRIGGIN' LANGUAGE
With those I agree 100%.
what happens to their Social Security taxes. Does it go to them if they retire in their home country? Do they lose it to 'the system?'
Lose it to the system. They worked for it here, they can either stick around and get it, or go home. Just my opinion.
THEN you would follow up with them to make sure they understood our laws... why they can't beat their wives or sell their girl-children. Provide them with the right mix of old hometown support and assimilation challenge (There is a huge problem with Ethiopian immigrants, for example.) because immigration is very stressful.
I agree, but don't think it's possible. Assimilation is hard partly BECAUSE immigrants don't get support from the existing population. Human nature.
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Hooo, boy, I asked for it. This is going to take too long, and I don't see us finding any meeting of the minds, so I'll TRY to be brief and just state my position.Quote:
That leaves me unable to understand some of your motivations, but hopefully that will be cleared up with further discussion.
Why does my not believing in "white man's guilt" make it impossible to understand me? That kinda floors me; are you saying that, unless I believe in it, my stances on issues make no sense...? Are you saying there are no other viable reasons for believing the things I do?Quote:
Well, if people don't fill those jobs at the current shabby piecework rates, then theoretically the market will raise those payrates until people DO decide it's worth it.
I believe that would be far more harmful to the economy than assimilating our existing immigrants and working toward solving the existing problems.Quote:
I merely believe that saying "hey, I've got enough room, you guys go die" doesn't work in the long run.
You simply rejected that; it's my belief; we disagree--rather strongly, on my part.Quote:
Have I mentioned that there is a critical shortage of water?
That is not because of immigration. It is because of how we HANDLE our water, not because of population. I know this problem all too well, here in California, and it's far more complex than that. Quote:
How can we begin to deal with the population problem if we can't even address it within our own borders, where we actually DO have some influence?
Again, I don't think our overpopulation problem is due to immigration.Quote:
People moving to this country have assumptions, beliefs, habits, language.
And, again, we lived through all those influxes you mentioned, and somehow they assimilated.Quote:
Not the kind of person who looks for a job elsewhere, the kind of person who crosses a border illegally and then insists that the law should be ignored in their favor.
I don't think anyone is considering "ignoring" the law; I believe the issue is how to deal with the current reality. Again I ask: Do you really believe there is a way to deport all our illegal aliens?? THAT is the issue, as I see it, dealing with an existing problem.Quote:
All of these got smoothed out with time, but do we REALLY want to go thru that process every time?
I don't think we have to; I think we can learn from our history and do somewhat better every time. These people already live here, it's not like they'd suddenly be arriving. If we dealt with the problems we're already experiencing, I believe we could solve them.Quote:
The "variety" of cultures extends to more than interesting foods and new music.
That entire paragraph contains so MANY generalizations, most of which, from what I've observed/read/learned are held by a minority of the other cultures you mentioned. It's not those BAD aspects of different cultures that makes us strong, it's the good things they bring as well, and the bad things, over time and because they're not acceptable to the society at large, get minimized. Quote:
Have you tried speaking out against capitalism and religion?
Hell yeah. Had some very spirited "debates" about both. Some people agree with me, some people disagree, some feel even stronger than I do, some disagree quite vehemently. But definitely, every one of those debates, I've heard people on every side. Sometimes some of us get together to work for change, some of those people go away angry, but most of us go away just fine. Quote:
it's not the "mix" of people that promotes tolerance, it's urbanization and anonymity
I disagree, and have read many studies and articles which caused me to hold the belief I do. As an example:Quote:
At least three elements have combined to create this society:
• Televisi
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Quote:I'm saying that I can't understand one aside from that. I was kinda hoping it would become clear in this exchange, but it's not coming thru. Maybe if we try a couple more times a I'll get a bigger picture.
Hooo, boy, I asked for it. This is going to take too long, and I don't see us finding any meeting of the minds, so I'll TRY to be brief and just state my position.... Why does my not believing in "white man's guilt" make it impossible to understand me? That kinda floors me; are you saying that, unless I believe in it, my stances on issues make no sense...?
Quote:Umm... why? I don't happen to think that our economy should depend on super-cheap labor, and raising the average wage will only make things better, not worse IMHO.
Well, if people don't fill those jobs at the current shabby piecework rates, then theoretically the market will raise those payrates until people DO decide it's worth it.-signy
I believe that would be far more harmful to the economy than assimilating our existing immigrants and working toward solving the existing problems.-Niki
Quote:Didn't quite get what we're disagreeing on. Can you clarify?
simply rejected that; it's my belief; we disagree--rather strongly, on my part.
Quote:No, there is AN ACTUAL SHORTAGE OF WATER, no matter how carefully we handle it. The Colorado River is 120% allocated, for example. I could supply the facts and figures, but I'm short of time right now.
Have I mentioned that there is a critical shortage of water? - signy
That is not because of immigration. It is because of how we HANDLE our water, not because of population. I know this problem all too well, here in California, and it's far more complex than that.
Quote:We have about 12 million illegal immigrants here in the USA out of 312 million people, who have -on average- larger families. Do you think this would improve if we had open borders?
How can we begin to deal with the population problem if we can't even address it within our own borders, where we actually DO have some influence?- signy
Again, I don't think our overpopulation problem is due to immigration.
Quote:Except for blacks. And the process is messy. Is there any better way of handling this?
People moving to this country have assumptions, beliefs, habits, language.- signy
And, again, we lived through all those influxes you mentioned, and somehow they assimilated.
Quote:Of course illegal immigrants are asking us to ignore the law. After all, THEY did! And they want all the bennies and no punishment as their reward.
I don't think anyone is considering "ignoring" the law; I believe the issue is how to deal with the current reality.
Quote:Alas, no way to deport everyone.
Again I ask: Do you really believe there is a way to deport all our illegal aliens?? THAT is the issue, as I see it, dealing with an existing problem.
Quote:But here's the rub: YES, we could solve the problem IF we were willing to expend huge amounts of money on English language education, screening etc etc. Look, I helped out in my daughter's downtown first-grade class, and in addition to the fact that there were 35 kids in the classroom, 12 of them couldn't speak a lick of English and required a part-time aide to limp them thru some limited syllabus while they floundered in the English-only part. This is a time-and-resource problem that is not improved by allowing unlimited numbers of people across the border.
I don't think we have to; I think we can learn from our history and do somewhat better every time. These people already live here, it's not like they'd suddenly be arriving. If we dealt with the problems we're already experiencing, I believe we could solve them.
Quote:
The "variety" of cultures extends to more than interesting foods and new music.-signy
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NIKI AND EVERYONE ELSE
I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I think in very concrete terms, at least initially. That's how I understand things: by being specific, by going thru the details, by trying to figure out both the reason for a specific viewpoint, and it's possible logical and practical outcomes. I'm like a rat running a maze. I have to run it five or twenty or more times while I figure out the angles. It's only later, once I've been through the whole thing many times and know all the blind alleys and connections to OTHER mazes that I can get a mental bird's-eye view. I apply this to my own thinking as well others'. That's why I would like to talk with you, and many other people, about this topic. I realize that I'm at variance with the left... whom I respect greatly... who feel very differently than I do, but I've never been able to engage in a discussion because these people are all far away. Since I respect your opinion as well, I would love to get your feedback.
So if someone were to say... "See, the other way to look at this is because..." or "No, you're wrong because your assumption is based on ...." and point to a specific outcome, a BETTER outcome, than the one I'm suggesting, I would be most grateful to look at it.
There is also one other thing that has influenced my thinking, by the way, and it is the discussion we had on efficiency versus robustness. Efficiency promotes centralization, which makes economies more fragile and less able to withstand shock. The critical factor, I have decided, is massive transportation. The thing that distiguishes controlled cells in a body from an ecology of interdependent beings is a common, trasnported energy source, waste removal system, and communication about division of labor (among the cells).
By way of analogy, we might look at the introduction of foreign species. Sometimes it makes the ecology more robust, by introducing yet another species to fill a niche. But many times, a foreign species takes over, outcompetes many other species in that niche, and reduces biodiversity. In a free-for-all, where distance no longer keeps species separated, we wind up with an ecology of weeds and pests: a very limited number of extremely robust plants and animals. I think there is somehting to be said about human societies as well- the capacity to mass-move energy, resrouces, money, information, and people, will generate a monocultural world.
I realize this is pretty "out there" thinking, but if massive transporation is what drives us into a fragile hive-like existance, maybe transportation in ALL its forms... including mass population movements... it a thing to be avoided, or at least undertaken only consciously.
Or, yanno, given that we the people have absolutely no control over the most basic and important issues governing our economy, this is a completely useless conversation.
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Thinking about this while playing tennis ('cause NOTHING was helping my tennis game today anyway!) NIKI- I think waht you're thinking is that people should have the freedom to escape an onerous country and move elsewhere.
That is one kind of freedom, but
1) It cedes the point that people should be have to power to reform their own countries.
2) Since other nations should have the capability to shape their policies and economies to their histories and needs (Bhutan isn't Iceland isn't Germany) it kind of knocks that out of whack. Having seriously looked at moving to other nations... have you SEEN the immigration restrictions that other nations impose???
3) It homogenizes the world. Given enough hmogenization there will be no reason to want to move elsewhere because everyone will be the same!
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Well, still talking to myself here, since this seems to be a topic where angels fear to tread... what role does immigration play in my ideal world?
I consider a group of nations, with the organizing force of all nations not under military threat, nor supported by outside forces, but trade and aid occurring between equals. Each nation then theoretically could develop into a tyranny, a representative democracy, a direct democracy, a socialist economy, a capitalist economy, or some other form of government and economy. Each nation will have it's own "recipe" for success... Bhutan, for example, has outlawed television and is trying to improve its "happiness index", not its GDP, and is reducing its population growth to replacement.
SO let's say the Bhutan is wildly successful.. people are HAPPY there! Everyone wants to move there, especially those in unhappy Bangladesh, which has decided that ITS pathway to success is in being a fundamentalist Islamist sweatshop to the world. How does tiny Bhutan handle the influx of Shangri la -seekers, who neither speak the language nor understand the culture??? Does one consider the influx of population to be a "success"? Or will it threaten Bhutan's recipe?
And if immigration out of miserable Bangladesh threatens to kill the very thing that the immigrants are seeking... and must therefore be restricted, for Bhutan's sake,... what is the answer for Bangladeshis?
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Hi, Sig, I hadn't forgotten you, I actually read your entire post before getting the dogs out and thought "It'll take time, but I'll deal with that when I get back". Then the day got really fucked up--I thought I lost one of my dogs out at Bolinas and it was a pretty awful morning (she's home and okay), and my bipolarity kicked in; I was kind of in shock the entire rest of the day, then discovered I was still wired and couldn't get to sleep last night. I managed to get here a bit after we got home, but couldn't continue, much less engage in a meaningful discussion.
But beyond that, I think this is such a complex issue, we could go on forever, and to state my case on each aspect of it would take ages of citing facts, figures, etc. I'm not willing to put in the effort, given what I read from you seems to indicate to me that we're too far apart. Especially since you still have yet to answer my main question: HOW do you figure going about deporting all our existing illegal immigrants? That is kind of central to the issue; we're not discussing future immigration, or at least I'm not, I certainly believe in some limitations but we haven't even discussed that. All you've done is talk about how bad immigration IS, not what we're supposed to do about those here now. You've said "Alas, no way to deport everyone." That doesn't address what you think we CAN do. You said you thought you had answered that question, but I can't find any answer.
You want to understand where I'm coming from? Sig, I'M BUDDHIST! It's who I "am", you don't have to look beyond that one inch for why I believe the way I do. I'm not nationalistic per se, I'm HUMANISTIC, which means people in Bangladesh are worth exactly as much as people in America. That may be where our views differ, I think along the lines of what is best for all humans, not what is best for Americans. That's probably why this debate will never work, if you see what I mean.
But I'll make a BRIEF try:Quote:
raising the average wage will only make things better, not worse
Absolutely, and we need to do so, urgently. But getting rid of all those willing to do menial work and suddenly raising the cost of EVERYTHING would, in my opinion, be catastrophic for a long time to come, and I don't think any country has ever managed to avoid stratification of wages, have they?
What you rejected was Quote:
I merely believe that saying "hey, I've got enough room, you guys go die" doesn't work in the long run.
By sayingQuote:
Why not? People should solve their problems where they are, rather than exporting them elsewhere.
If you believe it's okay to say "I've got mine; you guys go die", then how can we rationally discuss immigration, given that's the absolute antithesis of what I believe?
As to water shortage, of course there is one, globally as well as in America. A large part of that is because of how we USE water, not how many people there are, tho' there is no question whatsoever that overpopulation is already affecting that, and it will only get worse. But we mishandle water so BADLY in this country that if we WERE able to deport all illegal immigrants, it would only delay the problem somewhat (and not all that much, given who the real water hogs ARE), not "fix" it. I'm sure you're aware of all the horrendous ways we misuse water in this country; I believe we have to fix that, not just have fewer people.Quote:
We have about 12 million illegal immigrants here in the USA out of 312 million people, who have -on average- larger families. Do you think this would improve if we had open borders?
I never advocated for open borders, nor do I. I believe in reasonable immigration, and that we need to do a better job of curtailing illegal immigration. Right now, surely you're awa
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