The Hitler Conundrum
POSTED BY: RionaEire
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 28, 2026 18:31
VIEWED: 8911
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But I maintain that it's not the fantasies that are a problem, but that they are a symptom of individual problems and a more general gender media culture.
Mmmaaybee, but doesn't having those kinds of fantasies kinda perpetuate the issue?
I mean if society feeds a fantasy and props it up as some kind of ideal to strive for, then people might very well chose the fantasy and despite the reality of it.
It's like body image, people put forward these fantasy women with giant boobs and stick legs, and women who inevitably develop image problems from exposure to that will try everything to obtain that impossible ideal. Even if it means unhealthy stuff like bulimia or plastic surgery.
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But that's a case for changing media culture, rather than vilifying women for indulging in the fantasies they have been fed all their lives. I am fully in support of that.
What I mean is: you won't gt anywhere looking at a woman who admits to enjoying romance novels with your lip raised in disdain and telling her she is perpetuating oppression. Likely, she is not. Likely, she is an independent woman who is simply indulging a kink or fetish that was put into her head at an early age, with as much bearing on her normal life choices as any other sexual kink. Either way, she'll just be annoyed and stop listening. It won't change her conditioning.
What does help is keeping an eye on general media culture and general societal messages that young girls receive today. Criticize the hell out of it. Give girls alternatives so they can identify with power rather than identifying with being wanted by the powerful.
That way, the smaller number who put too much stock into that kink fantasy and treat it as more than that will hopefully diminish to nothing in the future.
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What I mean is: you won't gt anywhere looking at a woman who admits to enjoying romance novels with your lip raised in disdain and telling her she is perpetuating oppression.
I don't know about disdain... More like an unsettled grimace?
I mean relationships are already kind of a touchy subject with me anyway since the whole idea of them is kinda disturbing to me, apart from fumbling efforts to write about relationships in a failed attempt to understand them.
But then you start talking about power discrepancies in a relationship and I get even more squeamish, because you've gone from something which I consider merely strange if not outright troubling to something more overtly like rape and non-consent.
Some people are into both of those fetishes too, sure, and whatever floats their boat, I'm not going to try to intervene so long as they don't try to act on them. But yes, I'm afraid I do have problems with those fetishes, and I don't consider them harmless little indulgences. This stuff affects the whole society on a major scale.
When the kink is males dominating females (Or even the Reverse! Let's not have double standards here), you might have a lighter softer happy nice protective version, and you might have the dark rapey version, but both are actually equally abusive in their own way.
I'm prepared to argue that both sides of that coin are as bad for men as they are for women. Treating the protector as expendable, male and female damsels in distress, victims unable to fight back, the psychological scars that come with the dark aggressor side of this. It's about subjugating the will and violating the sovereignty and independence of a person. Not a good message at all for anyone.
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Likely, she is not. Likely, she is an independent woman who is simply indulging a kink or fetish that was put into her head at an early age, with as much bearing on her normal life choices as any other sexual kink.
Well, sure, except whatever she's using to indulge that kink, she paid for it and created a market for it.
Then newcomers adopt the ideas from that media just because the media exists, maybe even write the next generation. They become indoctrinated into the kink as you say, and perpetuate the problem.
I mean Jack's probably the way he is because he watched some sort of master-slave thing when he was young and it became a formative experience. Well that and his parent's divorce.
Just saying. People can have fantasies, and of course it's a much bigger problem when people take it too far, but some fantasies do affect people and are problematic in of themselves.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Mongolia
Kind of. Their lives weren't that great though.
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Hi Byte, I feel like you don't listen to me. My main draw to Temujin is the whole devotion thing, devotion to family, his first wife, and Jamuqa. But I'm not going to deny that the idea of being with someone who can kill anyone who will come near me if needed is a little bit appealing to me. Obviously I wouldn't want anyone to kill anyone on my account but the idea of "feeling safe" in that way appeals a little bit.
The truth is Byte that I'm not ever going to be the hero myself, due to my life circumstances that is not going to happen for me. Sure I can be a hero on a small basis, I fancy myself to be helping lots of people everyday in practical ways, but I'm not going to save the village, conquor anything or invent the cure to a disease. So aligning with the hero is appealing to me to a degree. And other than that ... oh never mind you obviously don't understand anything I'm saying here so why waste my time?
And besides if Genghis and I married it would be me doing the conquoring once the door is closed, :))
I of course would never hook up with a Genghis Khan figure in real life, come on.
My romantic fantasies range the gambit from marrying Genghis Khan, to equally ranked Celtic warriors or pirates, to hooking up with Simon from Firefly to Memsahib and her bearer (ethnicity nonspecific, it would be better if he were Irish honestly, :) but any ethnicity will do here).. Note that all these imaginary scenarios contain two willing and able to concent parties and are dashed with some moderation so they're not too all encompassing, see my opinion on the sex addiction thread about moderation and how real control is bad.
I'm also upset with you Byte that you would insinuate that anything I imagine would contain something that didn't have mutual concent. You know me and you know that I'm ferocious about making sure that any and all relationships of a romantic nature are between two people who can mutually concent/their abilities to concent are equally matched. I'm very upset that you would lump me in with anything that would suggest otherwise. I thought you were my friend, and a close friend at that.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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My main draw to Temujin is the whole devotion thing, devotion to family, his first wife, and Jamuqa.
Which is what I said to begin with. This whole attracted to the power he could have over you thing is news to me.
It's like Bill Clinton with an intern. An employer or military commander with a subordinate. A much older man with a much younger woman.
It's a power imbalance. And the problem with power imbalances in a relationship is it raises questions about whether the person under the thrall of the other can really say no. A question of submission and dominance.
You can't help how you feel, I understand that. But surely you see the parallels.
As a friend, I do feel compelled to give you a heads up if I think you're nearing territory that could be dangerous to your well-being.
It's a good thing that Genghis Khan isn't a living person right now and you merely have a crush on a historical figure. I'd hate to be having this conversation about a real live actual boyfriend of yours. That would be a far more dangerous and emotionally damaging situation for you.
Also: Everyone is the hero of their own story.
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And besides if Genghis and I married it would be me doing the conquoring once the door is closed, :))
That is a relief at least. But I'm still troubled.
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Having crushes on historical figures or men who don't really exist is kind of what I do. Real guys aren't interested in me and so there's no real danger of any scenario like Genghis playing out in real life.
And I agree that if a guy, or a woman for that matter, is over 18 years older than their partner its a little ooky and I don't support the match. I wouldn't make it illegal or anything (assuming everyone is grown up and able to concent of course) but I do frown on it.
Because you're a good friend of mine I know that you'll be honest with me about any relationships I get into in real life. But since I've never gotten further than three half baked dates with a person I suspect there's no need to worry. I appreciate that you want me to be safe though and make good choices. I'm sorry I got upset with you, I just thought you were lumping me unfairly into the nonconcent crowd and I am so opposed to a match where concent isn't mutual, or even where I think it isn't mutual. And you know that about me, we've spoken about several couples I know of through work for whom I'm worried in that regard. So it really hurt me to think you were glossing over all those conversations we've had about mutual concent.
Proffers olive branch ... ?
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Yes. I am not always clear, and I think I bungled that badly. I had an inkling of warning as I was saying it, thin ice and all, but I felt I still had to say it. I've been burned myself recently by certain attempts to control me. I won't let that happen to anyone else I know.
You're not for non-con stuff. I know that. But I worry what might happen based on this conversation. You think you can be happy in the power of someone, but then they will ALWAYS change on you. Demand you what you can't give them, and destroy you to get at what they want. That's what power does to people - goes to your head, makes you think you're entitled, makes you think you're better and you know better. What then?
The whole thing goes south in a hurry. That's the danger of that kind of power, inevitably taking the person subject to it for granted. Then pain, resentment, violence, force. You have to guard yourself.
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It is appealing, and some cultures were better to women than others. The ones you mention have a good track record all considered - and I think there's a group in modern China of mongol descent who have an entirely matriarchal society.
But good as the history sounds, they also all have their problems, past and present. Death by childbirth for one.
The world sucks, and yet it's also sadly better than it's ever been.
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