Guns, Guns, Guns.
POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Monday, June 30, 2025 05:56
VIEWED: 46757
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Look, I know I am being a hardass about this, but it's not intentional malice, it is because I have good cause to fear the logical consequences which follow such knee jerking.
I want you to understand, truly comprehend - that mine is not a voice raised in anger here, but in cold, bitter, dispassionate warning irregardless of it's futility.
First, there's history.
Way back when there was a spike of moral outrage, and knees were jerked, and we had something call prohibition, the unhappy consequences of which still haunt us today like an unquiet ghost, particularly in the form of government agencies worse than the gangsters they were set against, the "cure" far more poisonous than the problem ever was.
Not too long after that (1934) those government gangsters planted another spike of moral outrage and knees were jerked and the first layer of infringement against the 2nd amendment was laid down, resulting in the very imbalance of power some of you feel makes it no longer worth defending at all.
Then of course, came reefer madness and scary drugs and moral outrage and knees were jerked, and like a bad egg, the reek of the consequences of the "War on Drugs" hath slimed us all.
And then, when those Towers came down in 2001, knees were jerked, and look where THAT has gotten us?
So one can imagine my reaction to the jerking of knees and cries for more abuses in the name of protecting us from ourselves is a groan and a facepalm, followed by what seems to be an inevitably futile stand in the face of sheer goddamned stupidity.
Second, one should understand that this is a large part of what makes me... ME.
I have always stood against the tide, despite personal consequence, when I felt the tide was wrong.
Hell, my very first days of school I wound up punished, although not overtly, for failing to ostracise the black kid, initially taken aside under the assumption my actions were mere ignorance, and told "what's what" by teachers, and my own parent, only for them to quickly realize that I wasn't going to go with the flow, I was NOT going to engage in this conduct because *I* thought it was wrong.
And so I was a ******-lover, an idiot, lost cause, you-name-it.
Then when I refused outright to utter their stupid pledge, and wouldn't budge, the term "commie" got ladled on too, shoulda gone with the flow, shoulda not made waves...
Dating across the race line, oh what a horror, and then there was taking Home Ec, cause the skills were useful and I thought gender roles were bullshit, and "faggot" got applied to that ever-growing list of hateful terms.
Despite a certain usefulness, later on my unwillingness to obey certain orders, and refusal to support the motherfucking Contras wound up adding "traitor" to that list as well.
And of course, when the Towers came down in 2001, and everyone was screaming for blood, there was my single, lone, lost in the shouting, futile little voice calling for a little sanity, pointing out the terrible consequences of the jerking of knees....
Oh it's EASY to stand up for things when it's safe, when it's convenient, when you like those things...
Try standing up, over and over, for religions that take every opportunity to crush their boot in your face whenever they get the chance.
Try standing up, over and over, for the free speech of people who use it to spout hate at you.
Or when you find those persons or their use of those rights thoroughly despicable.
Ain't so easy then, especially when folks turn on YOU over it.
But when one stands up for human rights, it's a package deal.
All rights, All humans - cause to do less, to do ANY less, just makes you one more would-be tyrant, and the worlds got them in plenty already.
Maybe I expect too much, but I would settle for turning away with gritted teeth and hissing an acknowledgement that if you cannot find it in yourself to defend them, one would at least not work AGAINST them - it seems not a lot to ask.
An
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Cribbed from THIS thread
(which is a good read in and of itself, about use of force, and goes into more detail on this solution)
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=52836
Quote:
Mal4 -
CCW is the very basic Carry-Concealed-Weapon cert required to carry a concealed weapon, obviously.
And I firmly think that it would be a damn good idea to hold that level of training as a minimal standard for anyone who wishes to purchase one - alas that it's been proven (See Also: Jim March, Shall-Issue versus May-Issue) that the Government cannot be directly trusted with that decision, but I would firmly support offering indemnity from lawsuit to manufacturers and distributors in exchange for requiring such training as condition of a firearm purchase.
The cool thing is that it costs us nothing, the infrastructure is already there, instructors are inexpensive and ubiquitous, and the training itself is fairly standardized with allowances for the specific state the permit will be issued in.
It's a very sensible solution without adding more Government interference or stepping on anyones rights - although I have issues with revoking peoples right to bear arms for supposed "crimes" which prolly shouldn't be, but we can save that element of topic for later.
I do think the training is very important, for a fact I'd rather someone with the training but no weapon, than a weapon without the training - cause they'd be fully aware of problems like you mention and would very more likely act accordingly, although I think you have some misperception of the NRA and their stance on the matter, although for the record I dislike them as well simply because I feel they have failed to defend rights and become more self-serving than useful.
Worth noting I've brought it up many times, Google: Fireflyfans + Fremdfirma + Indemnity - and you will find quite a few examples.
What "lit my fuse" is the knee-jerk lunacy, when the essential PROBLEM is somewhere else, and winds up dismissed in a wholesale rush to dance to the masterfully played tune of folks with a friggin agenda - even if one agrees with that agenda, one should be suspicious of any politician cause they're essentially advanced sociopaths.
-Frem
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Firstly, I've often wondered whether empathy is learned. From what I understand, its near impossible for small children to have empathy, they see the world only through the lens of their own experience. As they reach around 7 - sometimes younger, sometimes older - they tend to really grasp that others have feelings, and there is a reason their parents tell them not to hit their little sibling over their head.
Some people never learn it, never develop it and some societies are good at inhibiting it. You will never get a society where everyone is empathic.
Secondly, violence and cruelty are as much a part of human nature as empathy is, maybe more so since we tend to lean towards that if empathy is not learned. We evolved with the capacity to use violence against others, against animals, as a survival mechanism. We are predators after all.
Thirdly, and I know this will be the most contentious, people are social animals, and societies need rules. How rigid and how many is all part of the push/pull of individual rights vs collective living. And I see that is the crux of the debate. Sometimes invididual rights need to be sacrificed for the collective good, otherwise you live in a society where everyone else be damned. Maybe America is seeing the end result of the growth of individualism. It peaked some time ago, and now the destruction and dysfuntion of living somewhere where the individual is more important than the many has kicked in.
So I'd say there has to be rules. There rules. An individual can't own nukes or biological weapons, a rocket launcher - or maybe you can???
Even with regards to abortion, the most stalwart advocate would be horrified if foetus were aborted at 35 weeks for no other reason than the mother was sick of the pregnancy.
Most people are okay with limits on most things, you need licences to drive cars, there are road rules, building permits, safety laws when using machinery. It just seems that the issue of guns has been mythologised in the US.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I hope more people like you post - not just here but everywhere. You do a great job showing everyone how bankrupt your 'cold, dead hands' rhetoric is, how disposable even little children are to the promotion of your agenda, how ignorant your are of history, and how irrelevant you are to an intelligent, self-determining society. You'd rather have guns than have society exercise actual working freedom to decide what it wants. You'd rather have guns than safe children. Got it. So keep at it. You're doing a great job.
Yet you write off the possibility of testing to identify the folks who would likely commit mass murders as irrelevent. Wouldn't it be better to identify and remove from society the people who are likley to go on a killing spree, regardless of the method they use? Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people with fertilizer and diesel fuel.
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Quote:
You arent a mindless idealog, so at least subconciously, you know that you hav a share of the blame for all the gun deths and injuries going on.
Hello,
As someone who communicates, Jo, using the right to communicate freely, you share responsibility for every hateful thing ever communicated. Every bullying word. Every person who has been driven through hateful speech to a state of self loathing and suicide. Every tyrant who ever riled the masses to violence is an evil shared by your loose tongue.
Fess up, Jo. Bare your guilt to us all. Either that, or advocate an end to all free speech.
It doesn't matter how YOU use your free speech, Jo. If anyone, anywhere, uses free speech to do evil things, then the blame is on you. On you and everyone who supports so hateful a 'right.'
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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Quote:
Perhaps you've betrayed your ideals in the past in some conversation or other, but that needn't apply to the here and now unless you want it to. If you cannot be civil in discussing your cherished beliefs, perhaps they shouldn't oughta be so cherished?
Absolutely NOT. There are some issues that a person's background and principles makes it impossible for them to be civil about. A lack of civility and alienation is hardly an adequate reason to abandon beliefs that have kept a person ALIVE.
It is unfair to make that suggestion to Frem, even in the name of peace and civility. He is wired differently than you are. You may well question the methods, but you CAN NOT expect such a different mindset to walk the same path you do. Not when those paths diverged long ago.
In fairness to you all, I do not think you are liars and hypocrites no matter where you fall on this issue. I even recommend taking Frem's admonishment in the light that he prides himself on trickster stylism, which by necessity requires some measure of deceit and slight of hand.
The liars and the hypocrites are as ever the power elite and charlatans who run this country and enslave the mind, and on that point I will never be civil. Not so long as their actions are so damaging to every person on this spinning world.
One argument about gun control on a firefly message board really is like an argument about abortion (to crib the example Frem used): holy cats it is COMPLICATED. All of you pro-choice, anti-death penalty, pro-gun control people honestly think that you are supporting human life and improving the quality of that life. Amazingly enough, it turns out that the people on the opposite sides believe the EXACT SAME about their stances on the issue.
Perhaps it is because these things are not black and white, but rather there are pros and cons and risks inherent in ALL of the options? Perhaps in all of those arguments, it is about choosing life, or choosing free will, and there is something inherently understandable about all the positions.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
It doesn't matter how YOU use your free speech, Jo. If anyone, anywhere, uses free speech to do evil things, then the blame is on you. On you and everyone who supports so hateful a 'right.'
Well said...which given the subject is kind of ironic.
As a gun owner he thinks we bear some measure of responsibility for every evil act committed with a gun. Fine, so long as he gives us our due credit for every life saved or good thing ever done with guns. On balance...I can live with that.
H
Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012
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Quote:
So I'd say there has to be rules. There rules. An individual can't own nukes or biological weapons, a rocket launcher - or maybe you can???
Hello,
I think someone can own a rocket launcher. At any rate, there's a hobby shop in town with all the supplies you need to build your own. I used to build rockets when I was a lad. Great fun.
As for nukes and biological weapons, I have to agree that my love for the 2nd amendment has its limits. I want those items banned from ownership by anyone, even governments. But I'm not prepared to go to war to achieve that, so I guess it's a lukewarm feeling.
Quote:
Even with regards to abortion, the most stalwart advocate would be horrified if foetus were aborted at 35 weeks for no other reason than the mother was sick of the pregnancy.
Yeah, that'd be pretty horrific. But ask me if I'm willing to tell a woman what she can do with her own body? The answer would be no.
Quote:
Most people are okay with limits on most things, you need licences to drive cars, there are road rules, building permits, safety laws when using machinery. It just seems that the issue of guns has been mythologised in the US.
I'm okay with limits if they are applied fairly and without a mind to disenfranchise people of their rights or place them in a subordinate position.
That's such a hard criteria to meet, though.
I think guns are mythologized, by a combination of a frontier past and a history of violent rebellion against authority. Every country has its mythologies that contribute to its character. The product of their history.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
It doesn't matter how YOU use your free speech, Jo. If anyone, anywhere, uses free speech to do evil things, then the blame is on you. On you and everyone who supports so hateful a 'right.'
Well said...which given the subject is kind of ironic.
As a gun owner he thinks we bear some measure of responsibility for every evil act committed with a gun. Fine, so long as he gives us our due credit for every life saved or good thing ever done with guns. On balance...I can live with that.
H
Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012
Hello,
Or how about we just attribute to people the things they actually do?
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
What "lit my fuse" is the knee-jerk lunacy, when the essential PROBLEM is somewhere else, and winds up dismissed in a wholesale rush to dance to the masterfully played tune of folks with a friggin agenda - even if one agrees with that agenda, one should be suspicious of any politician cause they're essentially advanced sociopaths.
I'm sure you watched the TV coverage and you were more angry at seeing all the armed police then you were about the armed killer.
Its amazing that anyone survived once those policemen got there and the killing could really begin...because in your opinion they are the the real murderers...even though not one shot was fired by literally hundreds of responding police.
H
Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012
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