Season 4 opinions?
POSTED BY: RhymePhile
UPDATED: Saturday, June 25, 2005 17:25
VIEWED: 21761
PAGE 4 of 10
I think all the Beast and the destruction he did or let happen was for was making everyone desperate, afraid, nervous, whatever you want to call it. he was the darkness to Jasmin's supposed light, the contrast to make her shine even more.
she wanted the world (or at least LA) to be at its worst before she came to save everyone.
and from going from a simple end-of-the-world indestructible stone demon thing to the goddess of love and mindcontrol was a brilliant arc. I was sitting there disappointed in the bad guy of the season because some dumb stone thing really can't shake me much. even if he blots out the sun and seems to be indestructible, they never are and the good guys always find a way to kill the monster. and then there was a master of the beast and Angelus was brought back and finally Jasmin came and I was terrified, watching Fred struggle to prevent the worst that could ever happen to us all, being mindcontrolled into whatever some god wants us to be.
have I mentioned that I love S4 of Angel? but I also love S6 of Buffy, I love the everything's falling apart seasons, they seem so much more real than the normal some random badass wants to destroy the world and the good guys stand together to prevent it seasons. doesn't mean I don't love the rest of both shows, though I think both shows shine in being so different from season to season. doing the same all over again every year is more the thing of Star Trek, not bad but not great either.
this thread will never die, won't it? we've just so very different reasons to love or hate this season, at least no one thinks it was boring and the same as all the others.
Idefix
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Darn, Idefix beat me by about a minute. I agree that everything the Beast did was supposed to throw the world into such darkness that Jasmine would save them all. Angel Inc. did it first - on to plan B.
She wanted them out of the way because if anyone could (and did) figure out that she wasn't quite the magnifiscent light she claimed to be it would be Angel's crew. The one person she wanted to keep around was Conner. Look at how jealous she got when he became interested in Faith. She's a master of manipulation, and she'd prefer it to getting her hands dirty. Even killing Lilah was a manipulation. She wanted Wesley to think Angel had doen it, maybe so he'd feel like taking revenge on Angelus and get killed in the process?
But all that didn't work out, so plan B in full effect. She had to make them all love her and hope that nobody figured it out. Look how irritated she got when the sun came out. She had to plan B the whole thing, so that may be why it's a little confusing to figure out her original plan.
Also, the orirginal plan was for the fight to be with Cordy. I think she was supposed to be so egomaniacle now that she wanted to use her higher being experience to take control, but she got pregnant so it had to be Jasmine instead with the same basic plot. That also explains some of the confusion.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
though I think both shows shine in being so different from season to season. doing the same all over again every year is more the thing of Star Trek, not bad but not great either.
I don't agree with this. Imagine Firefly lasting for several seasons (*sniff*) - can you imagine them totally reinventing the way the show is presented over the course? I can't. They'd have stuck with the ship and the crew and just continued to come up with brilliant little interconnected mini-stories that continue to flesh out the characters and their relationships. I'd have much preferred Angel to remain true to the spirit of S1/S2, where Angel and his team are struggling to help the little people and only occasionally taking on something on a large scale.
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let's agree to disagree, you seem to like the more 'stable' (for lack of a better word) parts of the shows whereas I really loved the really 'out of it' parts. I love Farcape, you probably don't. right?
there's good things to say about both sides. it's a matter of taste and that's nothing to argue or even debate.
I was pretty disappointed in Angel after watching S1 and most of S2, I only really loved the Pylean arc at the end, because I love Lorne and his homeworld was just to die for. I loved phantom Dennis because he's just cool, and I loved Wesley because I've always loved Wesely and will always love Wesley whatever he does.
I had seen all of Buffy in the space of a few weeks because I loved Firefly and someone told me to watch Buffy. I didn't want to but I was bored. and it drew me in fairly quickly and it never let me go up to the end. I think seasons 1, 4 and 5 were the worst but they all had good things too so not one of them was really bad. I switched to Angel because there was no more Firefly and no more Buffy and I was still bored, I have no life really *grin*.
but I didn't really get caught by Angel until season 3/4/5 I just watched it because I had already watched all of Buffy twice and all of Firefly a hundred times (ok that's not true, but often) but then after Pylea it changed and it was interesting.
I'm now watching old EPs randomly at the moment waiting for my DVDs of S1 so I can sit my boyfriend down (probably have to tie him up, he didn't much like watching Buffy) and make him watch Angel from the start. he's seen Buffy S1-5 and didn't much like it, too girlish, he says like Beverly Hills 90210 with vampires. he doesn't like teenage soaps and he doesn't like vampires or horror in general. more of a SciFi fan really. he loves DS9 and B5 and just found a new addiction in CSI. we're german and we get our TV from the net or on DVD since we don't much like synchronised stuff.
he'd probably agree with you, so I'm pretty much used to the debate. I'm the crazy one in the family he's the stable one. I love my entertainment wild and weird and unpredictable and maybe even a little un-understandable. gritty and dark and real and strong and confusing and mind-blowing, also come to mind.
Idefix
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I haven't gotten through the entire season yet, but what struck me when I was watching the eps where they bring back Angelus is how much Cordy is manipulating Angel into doing it. Meaning, I didn't notice it the first time around while we all thought she was nomal Cordy.
At the beginning of the season she tells him she can't be with him because she's seen everything he did as Angelus while she was on the higher plane. That means, I think, that Jasmine also knows all about Angelus, and mind-whammys Cordy into talking to Angel about bringing Angelus forth.
So Jasmine knows all about Angelus, and seeks to use him to bring about the downfall of man, since he already had connections to the Beast. The Beast kills the Ra-Tet, blots out the sun, and this way the bad guys have control using total darkness. Jasmine thinks Angelus will be on her side until Angelus goes rogue on her and kills the Beast.
The thing that was odd was that when Jasmine was first "born," she wasn't all that evil. She stopped wars, brought peace, and okay, sucked out the essences of a few people, but that's a fair deal when it comes to billions saved. She was all goddess-like and called everyone her children. Gotcha.
Which begs the question about why the sun needed to be blotted out in the first place. I assume it's because she wanted Angelus free, but didn't expect him to turn on her. But if that were so, how could she have ruled over a dying planet with no sun?
Arrgggghhh...I love season 4. I do. I enjoy it more than the other seasons of Angel. But I think to save my sanity, I pretend that the Beast/Angelus/blotting out sun/kick-ass Faith returns storyline is one arc, and then the birth of Jasmine and her subsequent downfall and memory erasing as another. Thus, Seasons 4.1 and 4.2.
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There's no emoticon for what I'm feeling!
-- Comic Book Guy
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
That's not a reason for blotting out the sun - why would the vision alone not be enough?
You saw how resistant Angel was to the plan to bring back Angelus. Cordy had to make sure they were desperate enough to take that action. Angel did not want to do it, he kept saying they would find another way. He was scared of what he might do as Angelus, and did not want his friends or Connor to see him like that.
May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.
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Which begs the question about why the sun needed to be blotted out in the first place. I assume it's because she wanted Angelus free, but didn't expect him to turn on her. But if that were so, how could she have ruled over a dying planet with no sun?
I think that would have been Jasmine's first "miracle", bringing back the sun. She wanted the immediate area in chaos so she could swoop in and "save" everyone.
May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
let's agree to disagree, you seem to like the more 'stable' (for lack of a better word) parts of the shows whereas I really loved the really 'out of it' parts. I love Farcape, you probably don't. right?
Wow, you nailed that ;)
Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
I love my entertainment wild and weird and unpredictable and maybe even a little un-understandable. gritty and dark and real and strong and confusing and mind-blowing, also come to mind.
I have no problem with any of the above, but only if it's done well. I don't believe S4 was done well - there was a lot of out-of-character behaviour, some pointless plot threads, some woeful dialogue and the most obviously pregnant actress in the history of TV ;) S3 is a good example of how to do a long arc well and I don't think S4 lives up to it.
On the subject of 'pain and hardship' in Buffy/Angel. I think in many of the later seasons of both shows, they reached saturation point. When absolutely everything is going wrong and it's all despair and disaster, the drama just gets sucked away. If all you have are bumps in the road, soon you stop feeling them anymore...
But if you enjoyed it, then I guess you're one of the lucky ones. From my perspective, Angel starts out amazing and gradually declines with a brief recovery at the end. For you it just gets better ;)
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Quote:
I have no problem with any of the above, but only if it's done well. I don't believe S4 was done well - there was a lot of out-of-character behaviour, some pointless plot threads, some woeful dialogue and the most obviously pregnant actress in the history of TV ;) S3 is a good example of how to do a long arc well and I don't think S4 lives up to it.
Hey Grounded, you might like to check out the commentary with writer/director Steven S Deknight on the ep Inside Out. He talks about some of what you touched on. He said that originally Cordy was going to be the big bad of the season (along with the Beast), but then they found out she was pregnant, so they had to come up with the Jasmine arc to take the story the rest of the way since Charisma was about to give birth. I am curious as to who exactly you think acted out of character?
May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
... and the most obviously pregnant actress in the history of TV ;)
and that I have to agree with, she was way too pregnant to play anything besides pregnant and they tried to ignore it for far too long.
don't know who's fault that was but it was not good planning. women tend to know they're pregnant before they really look pregnant but maybe they had to come up with a story and no one had an idea.
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
On the subject of 'pain and hardship' in Buffy/Angel. I think in many of the later seasons of both shows, they reached saturation point. When absolutely everything is going wrong and it's all despair and disaster, the drama just gets sucked away. If all you have are bumps in the road, soon you stop feeling them anymore...
maybe I need more 'pain and hardship' to feel it. not sure what that says about me, I've been accused of being pretty cold blooded sometimes. and it's only TV anyway. I'm known to read really darf fanfic too. and I'm not a big fan of happy ends at least not all the time. too much pain almost never keeps me from reading something, too much bliss always keeps me away.
sometimes I like to drown myself in pain. and that is what S6 of Buffy does for me, it gets worse and worse till there is no light anywhere left. and then I let myself be rescued at the and by Giles laughing at the absurdity of it all. it's an emotional freefall with an unexpected bungy rope catching you at the end. maybe it only works if you don't think too hard about it, just feel it go down faster and faster.
S4 of Angel is more about the confusion than the pain. can't describe it any better.
but even I think sometimes Joss goes somewhat overboard with killing every last shred of happiness his characters might feel. he should have given Fred and Wes at least one or two more EPs to be happy, they deserved more than two kisses and two minutes of flirting followed by a painful death, but then again he would have, had the show not been canceled.
Idefix
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