French cartoon sparks protests

Hah, in another thread, Shiny got it:

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You're right Niki- there are far too many who refuse to learn and accept other cultures & customs. Then base their hatred on hearsay, propaganda and boldface lies.

Granted you see people burning buildings and throwing stones but they've been lied to as well. Plus it's been reported that many within these countries want democracy. But we must understand that they have been used to their old ways for thousands of years.

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That is true, by the way, for BOTH sides. Especially the first part. NOT saying their ways are good or right, but what Shiny said. How many Americans have even the slightest GRASP of other cultures--or would ever attempt to have--and would rather just hate?

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There is no excuse for what the violent groups are doing or how they react. And there is no excuse for feeding the fire. Different cultures and slow changes or not, this is monumental stupidity - the situation is worse now, and both sides are less willing to listen and learn from each other.

And, once again, there is my usual caveat: pointing out the facts of the situation is not the same as insisting or expecting anyone to do anything different. Because apparently idiots exist and always will. Nor is it the same as suggesting that someone deserves harm done to them.

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Here's what I think of Muslims. It is an opinion, based on common sense as I know it,
not on any personal knowledge of Middle Eastern people.

I think Muslims are intelligent, decent, sane, responsible people in the majority.

Many of them want separation of church and state.

They have suffered far more from the violence of madmen than we have. They are sick of it.

They know Jihad when practiced as terrorism is wrong and may bring about the destruction
of their culture.

They don't trust America; we've always cheated them & let the common people down.

The Muslim culture can change, more quickly than we expect, due to internal pressures.

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My personal familiarity with some Middle Eastern people (who are also Muslims) would support that, Oonj. They aren't like these people going nuts out there and rioting.

I'd just like to see less hatred in the larger world, no matter where it's coming from. Maybe if there were less hatred, I'd be less angry myself.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Maybe if there were less hatred, I'd be less angry myself.

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Negative emotions breed like wildfire. If you can find safe emotional ground, the burns can become manageable....
If that makes any sense.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I just want to be judgmental and hate everyone including stupid riots and stupid artists and most especially myself, over there in the corner and not bother anyone, is that too much to ask?

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Yeah Byte, it kinda is too much to ask. Particularly from anyone who cares about you. You want to be allowed to hate indiscriminately and then you cry fowl when somebody gets the idea that you wish others harm. Not philosophically, but viscerally. That's what hate is. You want someone to hurt.

Maybe you don't really mean it when you say you hate people. Maybe you just really, really, really, I mean REALLY, disapprove of their actions and wish real hard that they wouldn't do whatever; but you would NEVER wish them harm and would get absolutely ZERO satisfaction were things to go badly for them. But you can hardly call something like that "hate," can you?

After all, in other posts you are very much against "hate," the kind of hate I'm talking about. And then you really gum up the works and confuse one and all when you tell us that you hate yourself, 'cause that doesn't make any kind of sense. No one has to care about you particularly, as an individual, to be concerned when you, a fellow human being, hate yourself. There's no logic in an animal wishing itself harm. Combine this basic human decency, of which we have an abundance in this group, with the camaraderie and goodwill bestowed on you by this community all the time and we all are gonna have a problem with the idea of you harming yourself. Whether it's over there in a corner, or right here in our faces.

I was trying to say that what you're saying in this thread, and what I know you to believe are in serious conflict. I hope eternally that I misunderstand you. I always begin there. I'm just trying to point out that what you say and what you mean to say as I understand it don't seem to be working together.

Here's an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about. You and I agree, I think, that torture is a terrible, terrible thing, totally without merit. You and I see the torture perpetrated by agents of our government and the torture performed by our government's political enemies as one and the same thing: torture. But a lot of folks in this country are busy telling us that our torture isn't really torture at all. Torture, when "we" do it is "enhanced interrogation;" we only do it against the "worst of the worst." But torture, when "they" do it is a war crime, the most unspeakable evil. I think you and I agree that that is really hypocritical, and whether they intend to or not, these patriotic American torture apologists are justifying torture.

So here you are with your hate. You just wanna hate. And then a few posts down, you decry hatred in your enemies. Does this make you a bad person? No. But it's a problem. A problem you will have as long as you stand by your "right" to hate. It dilutes the living hell out of your arguments against hate. You, despite your best intentions, have been a hate apologist in this thread.

And just 'cause it keeps coming up: people here do care about you. I care about you. Of course, I do. Why in the WORLD would I converse with you here if I didn't care about you? There are and have been a very few people on this board whom I believe to be...well, not such good folk. "Malign" comes readily to mind. I don't talk to those folks. Haven't for years. Life is way too short for me to talk to nasty, heartless people over the internet. I'm perfectly willing to share this cyberspace with you, to chat with you and argue with you and, as a friend, call you on your shit when such, I believe, shows up in these discussions. That's all. I'm a big believer in friends speaking difficult truths to each other. In my experience it makes us better friends.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to b

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Maybe if there were less hatred, I'd be less angry myself.

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Negative emotions breed like wildfire. If you can find safe emotional ground, the burns can become manageable....
If that makes any sense.

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You can hold onto your anger if you wish, and forge it into a weapon. Anger, like light, is an energy, and it can be focused like a laser.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Originally posted by Niki2:
We're in agreement on all but ONE single thing, Cav. I think it's horrendous; I think the protesters are 99.9999% to blame for what they did; I think everyone has the right to say/write whatever they want; I think censorship is wrong. The only single thing we disagree with is that the cartoonists knew they were fanning the fires and what they did would make matters worse, which to me makes them bear the other 1%. That is our only point of contention.

I get all the things you said, and disagree that I am "telling" anyone what to do; I repeat: I'm expressing my own opinions, nothing more.

And trying, once again, to help people understand the societal differences which are largely the CAUSE of the riots:

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if you live under threat of violence, you are a victim of violence

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That's one of the main points, in my opinion. Those in the Middle East countries we're discussing DO live under the threat of violence, every day, and ARE the victims of violence--and the mentality that comes with it. I spent too much time trying to explain myself and didn't make my point clearly enough; if we're ever going to deal with these people we NEED to understand the vast differences between their society--which has existed for thousands of years--and ours, which is relatively new and begun on a totally different concept than theirs. I've seen it; I've lived it; it's a world we can't possibly hope to understand unless we've been there. That's why, in my mind, it's too simplistic to say anyone should be able to say anything with no repercussions. The REALITY is different when it comes to societies like that.

It's wrong; it's 100% wrong; and it has to change. And it will. How long that will take, I don't know, but asking people to come ahead 2000 years in fifty, or even a hundred, and then blaming them because they don't "get" the way it SHOULD be is unrealistic. Ergo, doing things specifically to stir them up is wrong, too, in my opinion. It doesn't help; it doesn't change anything; it doesn't allow any kind of communication. And communication is what we NEED. The cartoons do exactly the opposite.

I agreed with someone back there that I think it would be GREAT if everyone everywhere wore t-shirts with pictures of Mohammed on them. They can't kill everyone, and mabye it would be a first step to bridging the GIGANTIC understanding gap between our two cultures. Even better would be t-shirts with Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, etc., all portrayed in a positive fashion. They NEED to understand, they NEED to change...but we also need to understand, and not just condemn outright in our own, pardon my bluntness, blind insistence that everything should be our way: NOW, with no exceptions.

Am I making any sense? We can agree to disagree that the cartoonists knew what they were doing and did it to be deliberately provocative, and that if they did, they bear SOME responsibility for the results. Other than that, we are mostly in agreement. What I should have been shooting for, instead of repeating myself trying to be clear why I believe what I do, was shoot for a better understanding of the situation.

While I was in Afghanistan, there was the story of an American woman who went to a party in a strapless gown and took a ghadi (their form of taxi--a horse-drawn cart kind of thing). She arrived with a knife in her back. It was horrible, it was wrong, but it was what it was. For better or worse, until things change that's the reality.

And we're not that much better. However wrong it is--and it's terribly wrong--a Black man wearing a hoodie and a woman dressing sexually CAN result in terrible things. So for all our "civilization", we share some of the same attitudes. Violent protests happen here, too. There is little, if any, similarity to hundreds of people rioting, but for all our

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