Moscow's waking up..finally
POSTED BY: Connorflynn
UPDATED: Thursday, August 29, 2024 15:07
VIEWED: 17391
PAGE 7 of 8
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Yes, and also where culpability ends for "encouraging" and "funding" terrorism. Obviously, if I'm giving money to ObL, or supplying arms, or providing secret information then I could obviously be accused of supporting terrorism.
What about if I sell arms to ObL? For instance, the Swedes have a number of small-arms manufacturers (or so Ive been told) and make quite a bit of money that way. If they sell arms to ObL are they supporing terrorism or just being good businessmen? What abut if they sell explosives? Bandages? Food?
Part of being a good businessman is also being ethical (at least on the exterior). I would have to say if someone sold weapons or supplies(of any kind) indirectly to OBL or his network without knowledge that weapons or supplies (of any kind) were going to him, would not be funding or encouraging Terrorism. However, If they did do such with knowledge that those said items were going to OBL or his network, they would be held responsible and would indeed be supporting Terrorism after all, thats what Al Qaeda really is, A terrorist organization.
No I don't think anyone should be able to sell food or bandages to terrorists. They make their beds..they should sleep in them. If they want bandages or food, turn themselves in. As I understand it, 3 squares a day and a roof over their head is better then eating grass.
I'm not so sure legitimate swedish businessmen are supporting terrorists for the sake of a quick buck. I'd be interested in any cites for that. Even the UN would lay the smack down (I think) if that were the case.
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So when the US supplied weapons and advisors to Bin Laden to aid in his efforts to overthrow the Soviets...
As for the Israelis, how much of a difference is there really in attacking and killing a civilian outright or repeatedly killing civilians in accidental crossfire or collateral damage? At what point does it stop being accidental and simply becomes an uncaring attitude? Neither side of the Israel/Palestine conflict is guiltless. They both seem equally stupid and stubborn. The Palestinian terrorists might be blowing themselves up to kill civilians... but the Israelis respond back by levelling a block of Palestinian houses or conducting a rocket attack from helicopter gunships into a crowded street.
Does Blue Sun sponser the Blue Man Group?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Juko:
So when the US supplied weapons and advisors to Bin Laden to aid in his efforts to overthrow the Soviets...
Cold War policy. Hindsight is 20/20
Quote:
As for the Israelis, how much of a difference is there really in attacking and killing a civilian outright or repeatedly killing civilians in accidental crossfire or collateral damage? At what point does it stop being accidental and simply becomes an uncaring attitude?
I don't agree with this view. First, The Israelis are targeting Militants and terrorists AKA Hamas etc..etc (The Shitheels of the Arabic World), It happens that the SHotAW (Shit Heels of the Arabic World AKA Hamas etc..etc) Tend to cower in civilian areas using civilians as a form of shield. I guess after a few suicide bombings and massacres of your people you will go after the militants wherever they lay. Unfortunately as I stated , sometimes civilians get caught in the crossfire. It's too bad the Palestinian people don't actually rise up agains the SHotAW and stop the senseless killing. It's too bad Yasshat Arafat is unwilling to compromise. So ..yes I would lay ALL the blame on the SHotAW and Yasshat Arafat. I call it restraint by not turning all of the "Palestinian Territories" into a parking lot.
Quote:
Neither side of the Israel/Palestine conflict is guiltless. They both seem equally stupid and stubborn. The Palestinian terrorists might be blowing themselves up to kill civilians... but the Israelis respond back by levelling a block of Palestinian houses or conducting a rocket attack from helicopter gunships into a crowded street.
Does Blue Sun sponser the Blue Man Group?
The Israelis level a block of MILITANT and SUICIDE BOMBER housing, it's not arbitrary.
I say let em kill each other. Loose the dogs of war in the Middle East completely. I want to see nukes going off. Lets start with Saudi Arabia and work our way around. Mecca may glow for a few hundred years (Israel won't go down without a fight), but hey thats the price ya gotta pay for peace I suppose. /sarcasm off
"Paulie, get the ball cutters" - Tony Soprano
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Just to fan the flames a bit:
http://mideasttruth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=461
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"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger
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ConnerFlynn, I have to say you're wrong on this.
Those "militants" have large, extended families who live together, sometimes these families don't overtly know what the kids are doing. And in the case of Palestinians who are very short of housing, many unrelated people live there too. It isn't enough to fire missiles on a block of houses and then say "Oh well, it's too bad the rest of the people didn't find someplace else to live." The Israelis are CLEARLY targeting innocent civilians, they do this deliberately to put pressure on the militants, and they SAY they are doing it. It's part of their policy.
Also, Sharon isn't called "the butcher of Sabra" for no reason. He ordered Lebanese Christian Phalangists into the refugee camp where women and children were pulled out of their tents, raped, and slaughtered. According to witnesses, the Israeli Army prevented refugees from escaping while the Phalangists took vengeance on the refugees. There were indeed perhaps 200-300 armed men in the camp, but this doesn't account for the fact that women and children were killed specifically and individually, not as part of some "crossfire".
BTW- it's not real smart to simply dimiss erroneous alliances as simply a Cold War error in judgement. We might perhaps want to (ahem) LEARN from the past?
One of the lessons I've gleaned from these errors (and there are many) is that we had better make true alliances with nations that share our goals and means rather than temporary alliances with horribly corrupt, tyranical, or fanatical groups because a large percentage of them seem to get enough traction to come back and bite us in the *ss.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
ConnerFlynn, I have to say you're wrong on this.
Those "militants" have large, extended families who live together, sometimes these families don't overtly know what the kids are doing. And in the case of Palestinians who are very short of housing, many unrelated people live there too. It isn't enough to fire missiles on a block of houses and then say "Oh well, it's too bad the rest of the people didn't find someplace else to live." The Israelis are CLEARLY targeting innocent civilians, they do this deliberately to put pressure on the militants, and they SAY they are doing it. It's part of their policy.
Also, Sharon isn't called "the butcher of Sabra" for no reason. He ordered Lebanese Christian Phalangists into the refugee camp where women and children were pulled out of their tents, raped, and slaughtered. According to witnesses, the Israeli Army prevented refugees from escaping while the Phalangists took vengeance on the refugees. There were indeed perhaps 200-300 armed men in the camp, but this doesn't account for the fact that women and children were killed specifically and individually, not as part of some "crossfire".
BTW- it's not real smart to simply dimiss erroneous alliances as simply a Cold War error in judgement. We might perhaps want to (ahem) LEARN from the past?
One of the lessons I've gleaned from these errors (and there are many) is that we had better make true alliances with nations that share our goals and means rather than temporary alliances with horribly corrupt, tyranical, or fanatical groups because a large percentage of them seem to get enough traction to come back and bite us in the *ss.
Just curious? Who labels Sharon "The Butcher of Sabra"? Also, Who are these Witnesses? I'd like a cite for this, because to be honest I'm not completely familiar with the Sabra incident. I would prefer it is from a reliable non "Allah sent us Great Spiders to combat the Americans in Iraq" source hehe. I'm open to learning new things.
Secondly, Palestinian families KNOW EXACTLY what their children are up to. Either they just aren't willing to stop them due to the big payoff by Arafat and his SHotAW cohorts (suicide bomber's families get a handy pay-off check once a bombing has occurred) OR they support them whole heartedly. Again I say, If the Palestinians TRULY wanted change, they would rise up against Arafat and his SHotAW cronies and begin to make peace.
As for the Cold War analysis and "Brushoff", My statement still stands. We are working with countries that share common interests and goals. They just don't happen to currently include Germany and France. Russia is waking up.
"Paulie, get the ball cutters" - Tony Soprano
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It's been so long I'm not sure that I can find good links, but I'll try. The ones that I've come up with are very partisan- either very much for or very much against- nothing like original news reportage or even somewhat impartial analysis.
Thats' why at this point I'm going on memory. The witnesses include the International Red Cross, which counted about 400 bodies (but that didn't include those that had been buried in mass graves). I remember photos of piles of dead bodies, and the term "butcher of Sabra" was in common use at the time. Because the pix shocked even Israelis, Sharon was forced to resign his command. The common suspicion was that he set the Phalangists on the refugees so they would do his dirty work.
No, sometimes they DON'T know. The families of the first two female suicide bombers were utterly shocked at what their children had done. Yes, there is widespread hatred of Israel... probably has something to do with the fact that Israel has pretty much bulldozed their olive and orange groves, farms, shops, and homes, leading to 70% unemployment... but it is one thing to throw rocks and another to grab an anti-tank weapon or a pack of explosives and nails.
And my point about the Cold War still stands. During the Cold War, NOTHING was as important as "containing Communism". So it didn't matter if we cozied up the the mujahadeen, Saddam, Shah Palavi, Somosa, Suharto, Pinochet, or any number of unsavory leaders or groups as long as they were "on our side". Almost ALL of those alliances hvae since caused us problems. It seems to take, on the avergae, 30 years for the problems to develop, but we are paying now for what we did 30 years ago.
And at this point, NOTHING is as important as "fighting terrorism" (at least the Mulsim kind). So we are NOW supporting Musharef (Pakistan), Karamov (Uzbekistan), House of Saud, Israel and so forth which act brutally in suppressing legitimate grievances, in which are NOW forming successful radical Muslim movements.
I'm old enough to remember the Mideast without a radical Muslim movement... hard to imagine, but it's true. I also remember the grievances and other causes of the movement. Some we would consider legitimate- the corruption and brutality of the Shah's rule would be understandable to us. Some we would consider unacceptable, such as the unwillingness to recognize the State of Israel. But by supporting the worst of the pro-Western governments, we unfortunately allied ourselves with tyrannical groups and got painted with the same colors.
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Quote:
It's a trap!!!
Oh BTW Geezer- you revealed your colors as a partisan rather than an unbiased seeker of truth. I specifically chose two of three examples to be leaders that we did NOT support.
However, since you mentioned it- there IS a logical inconsistancy in ConnerFlynn's ethics... and yours. If you define a terrorist as someone who targets civilians for death, injury, or deprivation for the purpose of instilling terror... or someone who inspires, supports or funds such activities... then you should follow that definition wherever it leads. But only you would call it a trap. Others might call it the truth.
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No comments?
Or will you let this thread die because it's not going your way?
By the way, speaking of waking up...
I heard in the early 80's from an acquaintance who'd visited Israel that even back then they were bulldozing the family homes of "suspected agitators", displacing dozens of people at a time. So Israel has been doing this for decades, but not a peep of it ever reached western press. And somehow, the fact that the Palestinian grazing lands, fields and orchards were destroyed, the fact that farmers are now separated from their remaining fields, that it takes literally hours to travel just a few miles- to work, to school, to hospital- just never really makes it into the news. So the Palestinians are portrayed as having an "irrational" hatred of Israel, and as being "incompetent" because of their faltering economy.
It may be news to some folks, but there were people living on the land that the British so generously gave to the Jews because they (Brits) didn't want to deal with a massive Jewish influx into their own country. Even then, it might have worked had the Zionists (I'm using this in the historical sense) not broken the agreement to settle only 300,000-400,000 people into Palestine, instead of the millions that rushed over. We have the Brits to thank for this lovely piece of work.
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I think this should be preserved for prosperity don't you. I wonder when JAYNZTOWN is going to respond to his own post, don't you?
Quote:
Originally posted by JaynezTown:Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
World War III is on, most of the world just hasn't realized it yet. The only difference between the Islamafascists and the Nazis, is that the Islamafascists are willing to blow themselves up, rather then just run people into the gas chambers.
When will France and the rest of Europe wake up? Maybe after the severed heads of their journalists arrive, maybe after a few more hostage situations with inane demands.
I welcome Russia. I mourn for their loss. There can be no diplomacy with the Islamafascists. Only force.
Take a look at (Insert Islamafascist group here)..
"Crush the Infidels!!!" (gets ass handed to them)
"We give, we want to talk" (secretly builds up arms)
"Oh wait, We SHALL DIE for Allah!!!" (Gets ass handed to them)
" No wait, we give, we want to talk" (secretly begins to build up arms again).
http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-RTO-roitz&idq=/
ff/story/0002%2F20040908%2F0627683863.htm&sc=roitz&photoid=20040906BES23D&floc=NW_1-T
Hot headed reactions like these are kind of understandable. I saw much worse ideas than this Flynn guy on the Yahoo-news and MSN-news board
It's true that these Islamic terrorists are scum, and if they take human life, bomb hospitals or kill children they deserve to die.
However not all Arabs, Muslims or Islamics are like these radical nuts. Many are just ordinary folk and some don't give a damn about religion. Terrorism will always exist in some form, it is hard to defeat but it can be largely prevented.
Terrorism flourishes where there is ethnic hatred, radical political leaders, religious nuts and oppression..these are the places where it grows and gets strong.
The probelm is that some try to strike back using overkill methods only to see terror groups spring back in other places and sometimes stronger.
Take the example of Clinton, he was a bullcrap president and spent much time with Monica and cigars. However he done ok for the USA and was smart when it came to global politics and events. In Kosovo, we had different ethnic groups and races killing ecah other. Clinton was forced to act and planes bombed. Afterwards there were big problems, yet Clinton set up the smart framework so that the area would be secure, safe and free from dictators or terrorists again. Clinton also done good in parts of Asia, Northern Ireland and the Middle East.
Now take our idiot Bush, all fight but no brains instead of finding the evil Binladen and his Taliban friends Bush is off causing trouble in the Iraq. Meanwhile N-Korea is building long range Nukes that reach the west coast and Iran has a real WMD program. Terrorism flourishes where there is ethnic hatred, radical political leaders, religious nuts and oppression..these are the places where it grows and gets strong and this might be why it's now growing in Iraq, a place where Al-Quaida could not have existed some months ago as Saddam used to hatethem and other religious radicals. It seems Bush has plenty of bravado and fight in him,
but no brains and tactics and no idea about peace, and security or winning the war.
There is no doubt these islamic extremists are evil and they should be killed for what they have done. However not respond by bombing a city
let's catch them , put them on trial and shoot them.
The worst thing Russia could do is play this like Bush has done, by pinning it on some other random city ( Baghdad-Iraq ) . When I speak of Clinton or Bush I don't just mean the presidents but the advisors and administartion which surrounds. Is Bush smart enough to win peace and security or are the terrorists coming back and more people going to die ?
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