wildfires and politics

POSTED BY: mal4prez
UPDATED: Sunday, August 9, 2026 14:08
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MAL4PREZ

Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach: I see the Internet and internet businesses and I see great innovation, I see gov agencies and I see the worst kind of problem solving. And I sure as hell don't see innovation. In some other countries, but not ours.

1. Do you believe the govt has had no hand in creating and supporting the internet?
2. What do you think is the reason for the lack of innovation you've seen in the govt? Specifically, please. "Lack of creative people" is not a specific answer.

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
I read your facts, I saw both you and Signym try and sell, "but it's just not possible!"
Maybe you misunderstood. What I SAID was "not allowed", not "not possible". As any child knows, there is a difference between what CAN be done and what the rules say you can do.

I guess the child in me says f*ck the rules.

Quote:
Oh golly gee, do I get a cookie now? I think I've been thinking of ways forward longer than you've been alive. I've created a lot of innovations in my work area, often despite management directive. I guess I believe in asking forgiveness instead of permission. I think you don't really know who you're talking to.

You really don't either do you? It's a web forum, what are you going to do? And yes you can have a cookie - eat it over the sink please :)

Quote:
I take it you've never worked on an assembly line?

No, I haven't, though I wish I could have when I was in college - guys that were lucky enough to know someone got in at a Cleveland steel plant and made incredible money - most of us were very jealous. Look, I know how you feel about corps Signym, I'm not trying to sell you/anyone on Corporations are Great.

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:In any case, the "shaddup" mentality comes about in ANY top-down organization where people are expected to be interchangeable cogs. That can happen in a call center, or on an assembly line, or in government. But you're right- the constant scapegoating of teachers and government employees can be very demotivating, especially if you're in a job that demands creativity.

It goes to M4P's suggestion - that (almost like the Israeli military) we should all have to work a year in the public sector, or maybe it's "pick one of three fields" for our 1 year tour.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach: I see the Internet and internet businesses and I see great innovation, I see gov agencies and I see the worst kind of problem solving. And I sure as hell don't see innovation. In some other countries, but not ours.

1. Do you believe the govt has had no hand in creating and supporting the internet?
2. What do you think is the reason for the lack of innovation you've seen in the govt? Specifically, please. "Lack of creative people" is not a specific answer.

1. No, Arpanet of course. Defense funding has had a hand in a number of off shoot innovations, but they are not primary to their goal.
2. Regulations, party gridlock, working with other people's money is not the same as working with your own, lack of a system that rewards and fosters innovation?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, June 30, 2012 10:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
1. No, Arpanet of course. Defense funding has had a hand in a number of off shoot innovations, but they are not primary to their goal.

Wow. No? So creating the internet and the entire structure behind it has nothing to do with the internet that exists today?

imo, the internet is a perfect example of what the govt should do. Fund and carry out research that is initially financially worthless because no one else will spend their own dollar on it. When it becomes profitable pass it off to people like you who put on all the icing and cool bells and whistles.

"No." I find it sad that you don't credit the people and organizations who made it possible for you to do what you are doing today.

Quote:
2. Regulations, party gridlock, working with other people's money is not the same as working with your own, lack of a system that rewards and fosters innovation?

Agree on the first two, though I dig deeper and see these not as the fault of govt in general, but the fault of bad govt due to "bad" people being involved. The same problems can, and do, happen in private companies. Too many rules and gridlock. Check.

As for 2: Do you think govt employees find no reward in innovation, simply because you had such a bad experience in one small corner of a govt organization? This is something else I find astounding. Surely you are aware of how many ground-breaking ideas come from govt labs and govt funded groups at universities? I am a little agog that you seem in denial of this. I can't even begin making a list.

I find your argument part of a trend I've been aware of for years, but it seems to be jumping out at me lately: equating everything with money. Want to punish a person or organization? Take their money. Want to praise them/it? Money. Judge success? How much money does someone have. How good is some creation? Well, how much money did it make?

It's quite prevalent. I don't think I'm explaining it well. I need to keep track of examples so I can do a better job. I think corporate folks in the 50s set out to create this materialistic mentality, and it's taken hold so strongly that we don't even see it. Everything is about money. I'm calling you with an offer to save $500, how can you say no? This other job has a big raise - you couldn't possibly stay where you are!

Uh, back to my point: If people have money as an incentive, you say, they will do better things. I don't agree. They will do more profitable things, and perhaps this means creating cool apps that appeal to the masses. I tend to not like things that appeal to the masses, so I don't tend to equate higher profit with success. Some of my favorite things are things with little to no monetary value, and were created by people who were not interested in making maximum profit.

I find it very sad that this is so rare these days.

Also, no offense, but I mourn the loss of the internet we had in the mid 90s. It was more work then, but so much freer and wide open. You didn't just sign up for facebook, upload pictures and choose the formats they offer you. You created your own page, writing your own damned html. Surfing the net meant finding these bizarre creations about weird topics I'd never thought of. Now being online is all about admiring shiny corporate sports-car webpages. It's fancy. It's impressive. It's soulless.

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 30, 2012 11:04 PM

MAL4PREZ, thank you. You said it well enough. Not everything can be privatized and turned into profit, and not everything can be bought. Studies show that creativity is NOT motivated by money, and not motivated by competition, Fear and stress just shut people down, if anything. Not everything is money. Friendship is not money. Innovation is not money. Intelligence is not money. Wisdom is not money. Long-term planning is not money. Security is not money. All of the really important things are not money.

PIZMO
Couple of things- First of all, "government" can be extremely creative. Just look at the Founding Fathers: they created a form of government which hadn't even existed before. The problem is that since Reagan, government has been operating under a group of politicians who don't think government should exist at all. That means most agencies are operating from a defensive crouch. It's hard to be creative when you're waiting for the ax to fall, or constantly being limited and berated by politicians who don't know what the fuck you're doing but sure think you make a good target.

But being a website designer, I also think you overrate creativity. There are a lot of processes and solutions that are extremely well-known. For example, managing forests to reduce fires and improve water regulation is pretty tried-and-true. What it needs, though, is PEOPLE-POWER and MONEY. There is no magic gizmo that will allow people to get into forests and thin on a tree-by-tree basis, and then create biochar from the saplings and refuse. Sometimes, it just requires a lot of work, yanno?

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, June 30, 2012 11:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

Is there perhaps a generational divide in this (and other) discussions on the board? 50-somethings "condescending" to 20-somethings?

Hmm. I do not belong to either of your age groups, but solidly in the middle.

Anyway, this is not what I've experienced. The "condescending" accusation in this thread, which was aimed at me, was no more than I expect from a certain kind of mentality. I've seen it in all ages, though more often in older folks. My mom is the master. When faced with an unacceptable topic of discussion, some brains have an escalating three phase avoidance technique:

1. Ignore
2. Criticize some detail about the presentation (ie mal4prez's posts are too long)
3. The emotion bomb (mal4prez was condescending and mean and I don't have to stand for this!)

The last one is the nuclear option, the guaranteed way out of having to actually discuss the topic at hand.

Honestly, I don't see that I was condescending as much as mocking someone with a closed mind, which is certainly something I do. I have little patience for those who shout their opinions while sticking their fingers in their ears, and wishimay came right out and said that's what she was doing. It's disrespectful behavior, and should be mocked.

Hmm. I have to admit though, I'm oddly fascinated by it. Some people like to poke Rappy, I can't help poking minds that seem closed.

Hey mal4,

I don't fit either of the categories myself!

I wasn't thinking about you so much as I was thinking about Wishimay who reads very much (sorry Wish) as a 20-something with the 20-something's tendency to feel condescended to by all and sundry. It goes with the territory. And maybe I'm just not clear on who accused who of what, which would not surprise me.

I was just thinking about how there is something fundamentally forgivable about people in their twenties saying all kinds of stupid shit IN REAL LIFE that can get lost on the internet. Sometimes I wonder how much of the flamewars I see online are really cross-generational culture-clashes. I thought that realization might keep a wise adult from taking 'em too much to heart or getting too outraged. I was hoping, as I so often hope on this forum, that the dialogue might take a turn toward the civil, and from what I've read so far today, it has done just that so I'm happy. O' course, I can't claim credit for the turn as I cross posted with Anthony who was much more to the point than I.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

1KIKI

Saturday, June 30, 2012 11:43 PM

Quote:
I try to reserve insults for people or conversations that are no longer useful or productive in any way. Perhaps you feel this thread or your partner in these discussions fits that mold?

My interest in anything Pizmo thinks or posts ended here, at this mindless and ignorant mantra, repeated TWICE, with random and unjustified insults to government employees thrown in b/c, well, they're a popular target among some circles at at the moment:

Quote:
Looking at the US Post Office it's easy to imagine that if some of today's smartest and hungriest entrepreneurs were put in charge how much better and more profitable it could be run. ...

Quote:
I think some of the for profit folks would say it's even worse if it's a gov employee running things because they don't have profit motive to move things along - no carrot, all stick. That's where my imagined Resolution for Dummies comes in :)

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, July 1, 2012 12:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Hey mal4,

I don't fit either of the categories myself! I wasn't thinking about you so much as I was thinking about Wishimay who reads very much (sorry Wish) as a 20-something with the 20-something's tendency to feel condescended to by all and sundry. It goes with the territory. And maybe I'm just not clear on who accused who of what, which would not surprise me.

I was just thinking about how there is something fundamentally forgivable about people in their twenties saying all kinds of stupid shit IN REAL LIFE that can get lost on the internet. Sometimes I wonder how much of the flamewars I see online are really cross-generational culture-clashes. I thought that realization might keep a wise adult from taking 'em too much to heart or getting too outraged. I was hoping, as I so often hope on this forum, that the dialogue might take a turn toward the civil, and from what I've read so far today, it has done just that so I'm happy. O' course, I can't claim credit for the turn as I cross posted with Anthony who was much more to the point than I.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Point taken. I had not read wishimay as being that young. And if she is still lurking, I hope she will understand, as other RWED posters before her have not, that I'm not half as emotional towards her as she thinks. I'm ready and able to have friendly chats with her in the future. In fact, I'll likely forget this pretty quickly, and only return to mocking mode if I sense disconnected replies again - those written without reading my posts.

I really do not want to be uncivil to anyone, but I find it impossible sometimes. It seems that some people define politeness to be stating my case in a way that can be ignored. Therefore, refusing to be ignored, no matter how carefully and politely I go about it, is not civil. Few things irk me more than being ignored, especially when the ignore-r tries to make it my fault. ie I didn't word things exactly right so my questions, no matter how carefully prepared, do not deserve to be addressed.

I am well aware that I may bring a 2x4 to this situation because to my sensitivity (that past history with mom) but when offered a choice between being ignored and being a bit confrontational, I'm gonna have to go with option b. And now I have pulled a 6string and brought my own issues into the thread. Sorry about that.

Where were we?

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, July 1, 2012 12:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:
I try to reserve insults for people or conversations that are no longer useful or productive in any way. Perhaps you feel this thread or your partner in these discussions fits that mold?
My interest in anything Pizmo thinks or posts ended here, at this mindless and ignorant mantra, repeated TWICE, with random and unjustified insults to government employees thrown in b/c, well, they're a popular target among some circles at at the moment:

Understandable. I feel like Pizmo, who I've seen around RWED a lot but I think never really chatted with before, is a smart person with their heart in the right place who's just had a little too much kool-aid. Sees the problems, but instantly goes with the convenient scapegoat.

I hope you don't give up Kiki. I think there's common ground here, and room for all to grow.

PIZMOBEACH

Sunday, July 1, 2012 12:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
1. No, Arpanet of course. Defense funding has had a hand in a number of off shoot innovations, but they are not primary to their goal.

Wow. No? So creating the internet and the entire structure behind it has nothing to do with the internet that exists today?

imo, the internet is a perfect example of what the govt should do. Fund and carry out research that is initially financially worthless because no one else will spend their own dollar on it. When it becomes profitable pass it off to people like you who put on all the icing and cool bells and whistles.

"No." I find it sad that you don't credit the people and organizations who made it possible for you to do what you are doing today.

You're reading it wrong (blast you) - maybe because you worded the question oddly: "Do you believe the govt has had no hand in creating and supporting the internet?" NO, I don't believe the Internet has had NO hand in creating the Internet... it created Arpanet. It's like you are hoping for a negative answer....

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
2. Regulations, party gridlock, working with other people's money is not the same as working with your own, lack of a system that rewards and fosters innovation?

Agree on the first two, though I dig deeper and see these not as the fault of govt in general, but the fault of bad govt due to "bad" people being involved. The same problems can, and do, happen in private companies. Too many rules and gridlock. Check.

Sure, it exists where people exist. I've just never read any articles about "Government Efficiency & Innovation."

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:As for 2: Do you think govt employees find no reward in innovation, simply because you had such a bad experience in one small corner of a govt organization? This is something else I find astounding. Surely you are aware of how many ground-breaking ideas come from govt labs and govt funded groups at universities? I am a little agog that you seem in denial of this. I can't even begin making a list.

Universities yes, funded by gov no - I've not seen the figures.

You presume things I never said, and from the little I did say you extrapolate to a conclusion you find objectionable so you can correct or even lecture (though only mildly, thx). Example:

"Do you think govt employees find no reward in innovation, simply because you had such a bad experience in one small corner of a govt organization? This is something else I find astounding. "

Thanks for the negative presumption. I think innovation in and of itself is the greatest reward. Do you remember the part where I posted about being a shameless worshipper of Problem Solvers? Not financial geniuses. I can't stop you from trying to read something else into what I type - so have a field day.

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez: I find your argument part of a trend I've been aware of for years, but it seems to be jumping out at me lately: equating everything with money. Want to punish a person or organization? Take their money. Want to praise them/it? Money. Judge success? How much money does someone have. How good is some creation? Well, how much money did it make?

Have you ever been really, really broke? For years? If you haven't been then maybe money won't mean as much. Maybe you have so many negative associations with money that you find it ugly? For me it is freedom. Freedom from fear, from dick bosses, from uncertainty, more fear than I ever care to revisit, the kind of freedom many people who post here mourn the loss of. I know that pain. I'm not a greedy bastard. I think I want what almost every human wants: to be left alone and not have to worry about paying rent, taking care of my family, simple stuff.

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez: Uh, back to my point: If people have mo

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