Real World Event Discussions

wildfires and politics

POSTED BY: mal4prez
UPDATED: Sunday, August 9, 2026 14:08
VIEWED: 27581
PAGE 11 of 15

ANTHONYT

Saturday, June 30, 2012 6:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Hey gang,

Is there perhaps a generational divide in this (and other) discussions on the board? 50-somethings "condescending" to 20-somethings? I know I come up against that wall here, thinking to myself "Oh, well, they're just kids," and walking away from a conflict. Now, of course, I've gotten into plenty of wrangles with my fellow grown ups, to be sure. Just wondering if the older, wiser participants might consider imagining the younger posters as nephews/nieces or beloved students and I wonder if the younger folk wouldn't get further in these conflicts if they recognized that the argument is naturally gonna be a little slanted against them owing to simple inexperience and other developmental issues. Is that too utopian of me?

Having spent some time in and around tribal cultures, I find a lot of value in gerentocracy as a model of governance (within a close-nit small community such as the RWED ). I'm really sorry if that sounds "condescending" to the youngsters hereabout, but in a healthy community shouldn't that have some bearing??? Just felt the need to point out what certainly looks like an elephant in the chatroom.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Hello,

This is an interesting thought. In my own life, the tendency to 'condescend' to a group of people has largely seemed to be a trait of the immature condescending to the mature.

I remember when the blush of youth was upon me, I couldn't believe how stupid my elders were.

As the years have passed, I have become more and more stupid myself, while my elders seem to have become increasingly wise. It has been a curious transition to observe.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 30, 2012 6:54 PM

Quote:
I'm a shameless, true believer in the creative mind, the Problem Solvers - these are my heroes - I'll take whatever blame you want to give me for that.
To me, your post only outlines the problems, a place to start, not stop. To throw up your hands is to say, "Can't make it go further." I know, that's a quote from a television show, but I've seen the benefits. When I schlepped as a photo assistant (some grip) our mantra was, "there's alway a solution." Lose a tripod? Make a tripod. Again I know, can't fix the PO with duct tape (well, maybe), but that same attitude I learned then has been a great ally ever since and in much more important circumstances. So go ahead, say "It" can't be done, fine.

As KIKI said- not "can't", but "not allowed to".

So, if you REALLY want to make the PO run better, remove the Republican politicians who put the roadblocks in the way (specifically to kill the PO) and then remove the roadblocks. Let government be government. And THEN you can get to the creative solutions. Have at it!

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, June 30, 2012 8:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
I'm a shameless, true believer in the creative mind, the Problem Solvers - these are my heroes - I'll take whatever blame you want to give me for that.
To me, your post only outlines the problems, a place to start, not stop. To throw up your hands is to say, "Can't make it go further." I know, that's a quote from a television show, but I've seen the benefits. When I schlepped as a photo assistant (some grip) our mantra was, "there's alway a solution." Lose a tripod? Make a tripod. Again I know, can't fix the PO with duct tape (well, maybe), but that same attitude I learned then has been a great ally ever since and in much more important circumstances. So go ahead, say "It" can't be done, fine.
As KIKI said- not "can't", but "not allowed to".

So, if you REALLY want to make the PO run better, remove the Republican politicians who put the roadblocks in the way (specifically to kill the PO) and then remove the roadblocks. Let government be government. And THEN you can get to the creative solutions. Have at it!

Agreed.

I find it a little silly that "creativity" is assumed to go hand-in-hand with "for profit". I have not experienced this in real life. I've found the requirement of profit often (but not always) damps down creativity.

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, June 30, 2012 8:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
I'm a shameless, true believer in the creative mind, the Problem Solvers - these are my heroes - I'll take whatever blame you want to give me for that.
To me, your post only outlines the problems, a place to start, not stop. To throw up your hands is to say, "Can't make it go further." I know, that's a quote from a television show, but I've seen the benefits. When I schlepped as a photo assistant (some grip) our mantra was, "there's alway a solution." Lose a tripod? Make a tripod. Again I know, can't fix the PO with duct tape (well, maybe), but that same attitude I learned then has been a great ally ever since and in much more important circumstances. So go ahead, say "It" can't be done, fine.
As KIKI said- not "can't", but "not allowed to".

So, if you REALLY want to make the PO run better, remove the Republican politicians who put the roadblocks in the way (specifically to kill the PO) and then remove the roadblocks. Let government be government. And THEN you can get to the creative solutions. Have at it!

Exactly! Now you are thinking of solutions, thinking forward. I know - and maybe this is something to HK's point - some older folks can seem jaded as hell.

It's simple, "not allowed to" is another way of saying "can't." You just see it differently than I do.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, June 30, 2012 8:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

Is there perhaps a generational divide in this (and other) discussions on the board? 50-somethings "condescending" to 20-somethings?

Hmm. I do not belong to either of your age groups, but solidly in the middle.

Anyway, this is not what I've experienced. The "condescending" accusation in this thread, which was aimed at me, was no more than I expect from a certain kind of mentality. I've seen it in all ages, though more often in older folks. My mom is the master. When faced with an unacceptable topic of discussion, some brains have an escalating three phase avoidance technique:

1. Ignore
2. Criticize some detail about the presentation (ie mal4prez's posts are too long)
3. The emotion bomb (mal4prez was condescending and mean and I don't have to stand for this!)

The last one is the nuclear option, the guaranteed way out of having to actually discuss the topic at hand.

Honestly, I don't see that I was condescending as much as mocking someone with a closed mind, which is certainly something I do. I have little patience for those who shout their opinions while sticking their fingers in their ears, and wishimay came right out and said that's what she was doing. It's disrespectful behavior, and should be mocked.

Hmm. I have to admit though, I'm oddly fascinated by it. Some people like to poke Rappy, I can't help poking minds that seem closed.

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, June 30, 2012 8:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
I'm a shameless, true believer in the creative mind, the Problem Solvers - these are my heroes - I'll take whatever blame you want to give me for that.
To me, your post only outlines the problems, a place to start, not stop. To throw up your hands is to say, "Can't make it go further." I know, that's a quote from a television show, but I've seen the benefits. When I schlepped as a photo assistant (some grip) our mantra was, "there's alway a solution." Lose a tripod? Make a tripod. Again I know, can't fix the PO with duct tape (well, maybe), but that same attitude I learned then has been a great ally ever since and in much more important circumstances. So go ahead, say "It" can't be done, fine.
As KIKI said- not "can't", but "not allowed to".

So, if you REALLY want to make the PO run better, remove the Republican politicians who put the roadblocks in the way (specifically to kill the PO) and then remove the roadblocks. Let government be government. And THEN you can get to the creative solutions. Have at it!

Agreed.

I find it a little silly that "creativity" is assumed to go hand-in-hand with "for profit". I have not experienced this in real life. I've found the requirement of profit often (but not always) damps down creativity.

I don't assume it - people can run restaurants into the ground from lack of creativity. It can happen anywhere and in varying degrees - just like you, I go by my own experiences. I do think competition is a great way to spur innovation. As we see almost every day on this board people think gov agencies are terrible, and poorly run in general. I think that's a fairly widely held belief too, whether it's right or wrong, it's still out there. Does anyone think this attitude toward public servants makes them want to work harder? I worked in a state unemployment agency for 5 days - it was hell on earth. There was no reward for creativity, "shut up and do your work," more just get through the day mentality. More to the point for me, the creative people I see that speak to me are not in gov.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Do you think insulting people some how makes you more right?"

No, I just enjoy it. I enjoy irritating the people who irritate me. And unlike little Rappy, I'll actually address the questions with real facts and logic. It's my facts and my arguments that make me more right. But if you skip past both I can see how that might be lost on you.

I read your facts, I saw both you and Signym try and sell, "but it's just not possible!" And I also see you both not understanding that laws can be changed. What just happened? Health Care? Should we just accept every law, "can't change it."

Btw - I have a good friend who works as a mail carrier. The stories he tells...

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

There's a difference between saying "can't" and "by law forbidden to". Signy and myself are both saying the PO is FORBIDDEN/ CONSTRAINED from running in new ways that makes sense and from doing new things that are useful. Don't blame the PO for lack of vision or initiative. Blame the roadblocks that are specifically put in front of the PO, and the hobbles specifically placed on it.

I never once blamed the PO. They've actually done some pretty innovative things recently. I tried to order their latest direct mail marketing kit... took 3 times before I got it. I use their nifty self-serve kiosk once a week. There's plenty of room for improvement, but I don't blame them - what's their motivation?

I'm still curious about those "ignorant right wing ideas," you say I had.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

I don't assume it - people can run restaurants into the ground from lack of creativity. It can happen anywhere and in varying degrees - just like you, I go by my own experiences. I do think competition is a great way to spur innovation. As we see almost every day on this board people think gov agencies are terrible, and poorly run in general - does anyone think this attitude toward public servants makes them want to work harder? I worked in a state unemployment agency for 5 days - it was hell on earth. There was no reward for creativity, "shut up and do your work," more just get through the day mentality. More to the point for me, the creative people I see that speak to me are not in gov.

The "shuddup" attitude is certainly lamentable, but I don't see that it is more associated with govt or business or profit or non-profit. It is associated with bad human mentalities (like the one I just posted about) and can happen anywhere.

I perhaps have very different experience from you, because I seen and been a part of great creativity due to govt funded and run science. The US science labs do some incredible research, and they can do that because they do not have to be constantly pleasing shareholders and bonus-hungry CEOs.

I have also worked for a few corporations, one was based in the US and bordered on horrible, one was founded in France and fucking fantastic. They believed that happy scientists are creative scientists, and if I told you about the beautiful offices and the out-of-control cafeteria you might cry.

I think your agency experience is not a problem with government, it's a problem with unsupported government. Like the post office and public schools: if we want better environments, better employees, and more productivity, we have to support these programs. The Right is actually involved in removing this support, so they are creating this problem.

I find it astounding that they claim huge million dollar bonuses are needed to attract the best CEOs, but a decent living wage of a few tens of thousands is too much to give a free-loading POS school teacher. Astounding.

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:28 PM

Quote:
I read your facts, I saw both you and Signym try and sell, "but it's just not possible!"

Maybe you misunderstood. What I SAID was "not allowed", not "not possible". As any child knows, there is a difference between what CAN be done and what the rules say you can do.

Quote:
Exactly! Now you are thinking of solutions, thinking forward

Oh golly gee, do I get a cookie now? I think I've been thinking of ways forward longer than you've been alive. I've created a lot of innovations in my work area, often despite management directive. I guess I believe in asking forgiveness instead of permission. I think you don't really know who you're talking to.

Quote:
I worked in a state unemployment agency for 5 days - it was hell on earth. There was no reward for creativity, "shut up and do your work," more just get through the day mentality.

I take it you've never worked on an assembly line?

In any case, the "shaddup" mentality comes about in ANY top-down organization where people are expected to be interchangeable cogs. That can happen in a call center, or on an assembly line, or in government. But you're right- the constant scapegoating of teachers and government employees can be very demotivating, especially if you're in a job that demands creativity.

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

I don't assume it - people can run restaurants into the ground from lack of creativity. It can happen anywhere and in varying degrees - just like you, I go by my own experiences. I do think competition is a great way to spur innovation. As we see almost every day on this board people think gov agencies are terrible, and poorly run in general - does anyone think this attitude toward public servants makes them want to work harder? I worked in a state unemployment agency for 5 days - it was hell on earth. There was no reward for creativity, "shut up and do your work," more just get through the day mentality. More to the point for me, the creative people I see that speak to me are not in gov.

The "shuddup" attitude is certainly lamentable, but I don't see that it is more associated with govt or business or profit or non-profit. It is associated with bad human mentalities (like the one I just posted about) and can happen anywhere.

I perhaps have very different experience from you, because I seen and been a part of great creativity due to govt funded and run science. The US science labs do some incredible research, and they can do that because they do not have to be constantly pleasing shareholders and bonus-hungry CEOs.

I have also worked for a few corporations, one was based in the US and bordered on horrible, one was founded in France and fucking fantastic. They believed that happy scientists are creative scientists, and if I told you about the beautiful offices and the out-of-control cafeteria you might cry.

I think your agency experience is not a problem with government, it's a problem with unsupported government. Like the post office and public schools: if we want better environments, better employees, and more productivity, we have to support these programs. The Right is actually involved in removing this support, so they are creating this problem.

I find it astounding that they claim huge million dollar bonuses are needed to attract the best CEOs, but a decent living wage of a few tens of thousands is too much to give a free-loading POS school teacher. Astounding.

Totally agree with your take on bad human mentalities. Since 1995 I have been pretty well immersed in the Internet. Building web sites got me out of bar tending and waiting tables, so that's been my world since then. I find it STILL to be the most fabulously creative field I think we may have ever seen, certainly that I've ever known. Meanwhile politicians argue, Medicare (which I take care of for my mom) is mind numbingly frustrating and backward and dull and evil - one of these days I will scan her monthly documents (6-8 pages, double sided text, for an aging senior - f*cksake) and post them so everyone can have their minds fried. So I guess I'm prejudice. I see the Internet and internet businesses and I see great innovation, I see gov agencies and I see the worst kind of problem solving. And I sure as hell don't see innovation. In some other countries, but not ours.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com