Real World Event Discussions

wildfires and politics

POSTED BY: mal4prez
UPDATED: Sunday, August 9, 2026 14:08
VIEWED: 27581
PAGE 7 of 15

PIZMOBEACH

Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

There's a trade-off here. Top-down gets things down more quickly, but group work can incorporate more ideas and be more creative. There are times for each. Personally, I prefer something more top-down when I'm working with a group, because I generally want to get shit done and be on my way. You know, unless the "top" person is a moron.

I think some of the for profit folks would say it's even worse if it's a gov employee running things because they don't have profit motive to move things along - no carrot, all stick. That's where my imagined Resolution for Dummies comes in :)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
But I think you're right that it isn't that people are "bad", it's just hard to get anything done as a group. I only have small experience with trying to organize a group of widely varying people, to form an organization that will continue to serve its purpose for the indefinite future. (A college club, actually.) It was shockingly hard. So many complications to handle, different situations to predict and deal with. It made me see how any govt gets to be such a mess.

It's sadly inevitable that things get too messy. I wish there was a rule about getting rid of as many rules as possible. Every 10 or 20 years, we need to throw everything out unless there's a very compelling reason to keep it. Of course, the rules that would spring up around such a rule-clearing-out would be their own tangle.

I have been on both sides too - the great thing for me was that I was 100% certain (heh) I could do better never thinking I'd have the chance to actually be in that position and then - bang - howdy. It was a great teaching moment. I think Mr. Auraptor would be my primary candidate here for that experience. Someone should ask him at least once in each of his threads going forward, "ok, so what would you do then?" I've tried and it seems to go unnoticed.

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Oh - the point I mean to make is that all these anti-govt people would learn a lot by trying to form groups that bring disparate people together. See how hard it is to get things done. It would be lovely to 1) find better ways to work together 2) be a little more forgiving when a collaborative (ie govt) process takes time and effort and the results are imperfect.

Yes! We should have a class in high school - everyone should have the experience of trying to run a group (herding cats) with their back side on the line.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

NIKI2

Thursday, June 28, 2012 9:21 PM

Quote:
Looking at the US Post Office it's easy to imagine that if some of today's smartest and hungriest entrepreneurs were put in charge how much better and more profitable it could be run.

I doubt they could. You DO know the reason the Post Office is in trouble, don't you?

Quote:
In 2006, Congress passed the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act. This law requires the Postal Service to do something that no other business or government agency has to do--pre-fund its FUTURE retiree health care benefits. This is a 75 year liability that has to be paid in 10 years. The Postal Service makes a payment of approximately $5.5 billion on September 30 at the end of every fiscal year to meet this obligation. The Post Office has been paying these benefits the past four years into a trust fund for employees who have not even been born yet. This is the burden that is creating the “financial crisis” for the Post Office.

I'm sure private enterprise could make the Post Office run smoother, and no doubt could lessen some of the expenses, but do you really think they could overcome such an obstacle?

To me, this is the height of insanity and pretty much makes it impossible for ANY organization to run long-term, profit or not.

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
These seven tankers were provided by the government after a contract with a private company was cancelled last year. (In other words, you're full of shit to say funding was cut. Government funds were used to build government planes.)

Brava PR!

Pizmo: I have this dream that government would be a required task for everyone. No elections, just random draws, kind of like jury duty. When your number comes up you HAVE to go serve for a full year, possibly two. You get paid a more than a living wage, so it's a bit of a windfall for poor folks and a bit of a hit for the wealthy. There would be no professional politicians, no PACs, no lobbyists. All of us would bear responsibility for running this country and figuring out just how hard it is to, say, build a reliable fire department.

1KIKI

Friday, June 29, 2012 2:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Looking at the US Post Office it's easy to imagine that if some of today's smartest and hungriest entrepreneurs were put in charge how much better and more profitable it could be run. With so much more retail now being done online with the associated increase in shipping... there should be a windfall.

Yanno, if one more completely ignorant right-wing talking-point comes out of your brain I think it will implode from the vacuum.

The Post Office is in the state it's in b/c the right-wing Congress hobbled it with extra expenses no other business OR government agency has to support, then hobbled its ability to stabilize its finances by forbidding it from making a profit.

1KIKI

Friday, June 29, 2012 2:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

I think some of the for profit folks would say it's even worse if it's a gov employee running things because they don't have profit motive to move things along - no carrot, all stick. That's where my imagined Resolution for Dummies comes in :)

Profit is not a way to take care of things that are necessary. It's a way to make things that are below the single-item purchase-price threshold for most individuals. It's far easier to sell lipstick for a couple of dollars to many than it is to sell steel at 10X the unit price. That makes it far more profitable to make lipstick than it is to make steel.

And profit isn't a way to make things BETTER - it's a way to make them CHEAPER. But not SO cheap that people won't buy it - unless it's a necessity or you have a monopoly, in which case, you can do what you want. Grease, salt and pink slime, anyone? You need to eat SOMEthing and it's cheap!

1KIKI

Friday, June 29, 2012 3:01 AM

"I only have small experience with trying to organize a group of widely varying people, to form an organization that will continue to serve its purpose for the indefinite future. (A college club, actually.) It was shockingly hard."

The most successful movements I've seen are single-item movements that many different people crystallize on.

What happened to 'the disappear'? Mubarek must go. Britain out of Ireland ... Britain out of India ... Give me Liberty or give me death.

Once those goals are met, it gets far far more complicated to go forward on the host of other items. That's why the bazzilion opposition candidates with a large overall movement behind them in Egypt lost out to a small minority of the Muslim Brotherhood. The people of Tahrir Square and others had got that one thing done and hadn’t figured out yet how to move forward as a group on other things. The Brotherhood (being tolerated as a religious opposition in a way a socialist opposition wouldn't have been) had been around longer and was simply was more cohesive.

FWIW I've been lucky enough to be in three organizations (spark one by speaking up, join one as a founding part of the common group, and be lucky enough to be in the third) that seemed to come together almost by magic. They were EXTREMELY efficient, fruitful, unified and organized for quite some time. There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

1KIKI

Friday, June 29, 2012 3:22 AM

But as I think about it Mal4Prez - did you learn anything from your efforts besides that it was hard?

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, June 29, 2012 4:36 AM

I grok ya, Mal4 - Anarchists have a pretty strong sense of civic responsibility, they kinda have to cause otherwise they'd be pretty damn hypocritical (and yeah, a lot of em are, sure) - and *I* am of the opinion that ANY Fire Department or equipment not currently engaged, should be deployed on something like this, whether private, government, military or what have you...

There's just no HUMANE excuse not to go all-hands when one has the ability, skills and equipment to do so in a case like this, and having those skills and equipment at hand is *WHY* we have fire departments, et cetera.

We had a smallish one here in Ann Arbor which thankfully was quickly stomped, but knocked out power to 6,000 people, which was a double misery cause of record temps here (I am hiding under my wheezing, suffering air conditioner right now) and causes me a lotta concern about potential fire hazards of 4th of july fireworks - this place is up to code, barely, but these are old buildings and although not explicitly my job, I do have a fallback plan and some volunteers to pin down a fire if need be till the VFD gets over here with the big hoses.

But politics in a situation like that ?
Always stuck me as lunacy - shit, we OUGHT to have a couple heavy tankers in the air already, I mean a KC130 can hold how much liquid, and mounting even a halfass sprayer shouldn't take that bloody long!

-Frem

WISHIMAY

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

We had a smallish one here in Ann Arbor which thankfully was quickly stomped, but knocked out power to 6,000 people, which was a double misery cause of record temps here (I am hiding under my wheezing, suffering air conditioner right now) and causes me a lotta concern about potential fire hazards of 4th of july fireworks - this place is up to code, barely, but these are old buildings and although not explicitly my job, I do have a fallback plan and some volunteers to pin down a fire if need be till the VFD gets over here with the big hoses.

Always stuck me as lunacy - shit, we OUGHT to have a couple heavy tankers in the air already, I mean a KC130 can hold how much liquid, and mounting even a halfass sprayer shouldn't take that bloody long!

-Frem

There's gonna be a hellova lot more fires before this season ends... I'm thinking of heading towards water this Fourth myself. Let the fools fry themselves...

I'd love to know stats on how many people have successfully fought off a fire in one of these big ones, and if there are current methods of building and landscaping to assist, 'cause I saw the pics today and you can tell where a lot of people tried to fight it off and lost...

The thing about mounting sprayers is partially what I'm talking about, I think more better could be, should be, done, bigger, better, faster.... and if it's not, why bother fighting it at all? Let's just order some more battleships and billion dollar stealth jets. That'll fix it...
One house on fire can be fought. A moving wall of flames with 50 mph winds??That's crazy talk....

And Mal4prez, You ask too many damn questions for me to respond and still have time for things like sleep. Some of you people need to learn the subtle art of saying the stuff you wanna say without taking ALL damn day.... I don't even read posts over a few paragraphs. I have things to DO.

MAL4PREZ

Friday, June 29, 2012 5:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
And Mal4prez, You ask too many damn questions for me to respond and still have time for things like sleep. Some of you people need to learn the subtle art of saying the stuff you wanna say without taking ALL damn day.... I don't even read posts over a few paragraphs. I have things to DO.

Wishy dear, that's exactly why I made it easy for you:

1. You do understand that this thread is not about a single building, right?
2. In the general case and not just for you specifically, please explain how letting a fire grow and spread freely is better for the safety and welfare of everyone in a community.
3. If, as you say, the firefighters in CO Springs have been completely ineffective, how do you explain that the city is not currently on fire?
4. What do you see as the difference between "civilian organizations" and local govt.