Wow - North Korea agrees to suspend nuclear weapons tests and uranium enrichment

I'm not sure where my idocy comes in there Frem, but I agree with your response.

I did find it funny that 10 years ago before my initial post of the "Anybody" thread here was the exact day of the 10 year anniversary of the "incident".

It's sad...

While I feel that I've made myself 1000% better since that day, it seems like most everyone around me has almost intentionally made themselves shittier.

God I miss the 80's and childhood...

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Why do you have to mix such complete idiocy up with it every time you got a point, Jack ?

Seriously, yeah verily we could turn that place into farmland cheaper than wasteland, and if we buckled down with the moderates on it THEY would throw them shitheads out instead of hiding being the radical fucks from our sabre rattling.

But as for 9-11, you *do* realize all the ACTUAL evidence points to a pack of Saudis with a Kuwaiti financier, who is at this moment sitting in a federal supermax, yes ?

Not that I think you care if the Christofascists and the Radical Islamists kill each other, shit, neither do I - but I kinda mind when they do it on my dime, you know ?

IMHO we shoulda put them towers RIGHT BACK UP, all hands on board, as fast as we *could* do it, just to slap them in the face and show them how petty and feeble the attempt to cow or bait us was - but no, our politicians, all of em, walked right into it, and our so-called-protectors HELPED em right into the trap...
(And given WHO gave Ramzi Youssef that bomb in 1993 I am quite sure it was on purpose.)

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Wow Jack, did you really just say that? It looks like you did. I can't abide by that extremism. I don't blame you for being pissed off though about how badly things have gone since 9/11, but we can't just blow up Mecca, the world just doesn't work like that, nor should it.

I'm not voting for you for president, we just don't have enough in common, then again I don't have much in common with any of the goonches running currently either.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Yeah, I agree with you Riona.

That is a very extreme measure from a guy who usually ends up in a wash between sides if you add up my positions on all the issues and 99% of the time opt for whichever "side" goes for personal liberty over legislated morality on the issue. For example, I'm pro gun rights, but I'm also pro choice (so long as 100% of the tax payers aren't forced to pay for birth control or abortions with their tax dollars when so many Americans hold a strong moral/spiritual objection to it).



Maybe it wouldn't have been the right thing to do (bombing Mecca), but I think that first week after the fact there wouldn't have been a whole ton of resistance against the idea, inside or outside of the US, if there were proper notice given and people didn't actually die because of the bombing. It's a MUCH more humane answer than our attacks on Nagasaki and Hiroshima (and we could very likely have lost WWII had we not done that). Bombing Mecca would absolutely be the wrong thing to do today, in 2012. That was a very short window of possibility.

Tough situations make for tough decisions. As it is now, there is a constant nagging in the back of every one of our heads that today could be the day where something HUGE like 9/11 happens again. At least with Russia, and the decades long cold war, we felt better about the whole thing because nobody on either side wanted to die for God. Though we disagreed strongly in politics, there was no Russian or US citizen that was going to sacrifice their own lives in the name of Democracy or Communism. Though the constant threat was there, I truly believe that nobody on each side was "animal" enough to drop a bomb on the other side and sacrifice thousands or tens of thousands of innocent civilians for either cause as well.

With the Middle East though, we're dealing with sub-human creatures here who have no remorse. Add to that the fact that so many of them live here and there is absolutely no way to tell the insane ones apart from those are human and only came to America because truly want a better life. Not only do the feral Middle Easterners not care about their own lives compared to the glory of serving their own God, but they are thrilled at the idea of taking out as many possible "heathens" with them when they go.



Fast forward 11 years after we didn't handle our retaliation appropriately like we did Pearl Harbor, and what has come of it? Nothing we have done in 10 years has stopped that from being a possibility, and short of making some farm land on all that Mid East sand and ensuring a more fruitful life that can then be exploited by America-knock-off Media that can keep them from being such extremists, there is nothing that can be done about it. Had Mecca been destroyed within one week of 9/11, there wouldn't be a radical Muslim in the world who would dare try something like that against America, or any other country again.



I like the state of Christianity today. There were days where many Christians were just as anamilistic in their beliefs as the Muslims are today. Most Christians today live in countries that give people a chance. Most people who are Christian today or live around a lot of Christians live lives that can be at least successful enough that there is no way they'd give their life up for God. This isn't the case with MANY Muslims yet.

I'm sure that there are probably a lot of Muslims living here in America who had come here as a sleeper agent but by now would never pull the trigger when the time came because they got a taste of how good life on Earth can be. There are probably a lot of them who have met good people of different races who live here and have forged friendships over the years and over time they shed their own anamalistic instincts.

That's the trick.....

How do we bring the American way of life to the Middle East?

In a world where everyone in the Middle East was completely free to follow Muslim practices, but they also had enough free time after working their 9-5 job to watch Iranian Idol,

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Bah, most of the Muslims what came over here hate them radical fucks worse than we do - thing is even the worst of them nutjobs who DO come over here with intent often get corrupted by our culture and throw in the towel, and them who don't can't get a leg up, can't carry through their idiotic plans cause no one here will help em, you see.

Except for one little problem - our so-called protectors reaching out to them, financing them, giving them the material support to carry out their crackbrained concept, in hopes of making a bust, when without that material support all they'd ever BE is some loudmouth with a pipedream.
And that *HAS* killed americans, never forget that Ramzi Youssef got that bomb FROM the FBI back in 1993, who either by incompetence or design let him set it off.

Think for a moment, these jackasses have language and culture barriers, lack of understanding, that means they HAVE to seek out other Muslims or foreign-born in order to back their play, and often as not those people, over here cause they HATE bastards like that, wind up making the sumbitches disappear since because of racial and religious intolerance amongst our law enforcement and other so-called protectors, reporting those scum would get THEM accused of shit, you know ?

Heaven knows there's prolly more than a couple of radical shitheads at the bottom of the great lakes cause of that (Dearborn, MI has the countries largest concentration of arabic-muslim immigrants, who are as a rule decent folk, with a few minor exceptions) and I got no issue with them policing their own - I just wish our so-called protectors would work WITH them on this instead of allowing their own prejudices to run wild resulting in things being screwed up as they are.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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I agree.

Most of the people that are from the Middle East aren't radical wackos. All it takes is the idea that 1 in 10,000 are though to make a lot of folk uncomfortable even being around them.

Pre-9/11 and even a year before Ramzi, I went to Jr High with quite a few "arabs". (They were probably mixed middle eastern descent, but you know how easy it is for kids to just place labels). A few I knew from grade school were really cool, but the ones that came from other schools were just downright scary. First, they always seemed to have a beef with anyone who wasn't one of them, granted this may have just been a self defense mechanism on their part. But what was really scary was that nobody wanted to cross any one of them. If you got into a fight with one of them, you got into a fight with all of them.

In the mean time, there weren't any white guys around that were going to bail your ass out if you got yourself into that situation. After getting out of that situation, I did look back and respect their ability to stick together. I never knew any white kids that would band together like that while I grew up. Hell, I've only had two people in my own life ever back me up in a bad situation before... my brother and my best friend. Most people just head for the hills when trouble comes.





I still say that making the Middle East a desirable place to live is the best way to go. All the self-policing in the world state-side, even if they did get help from our "protectors" doesn't amount to crap when there are plenty more to replace anyone who turns up missing.

These radical wackos are brainwashed to the point of brain damage. From what I understand, it's not too hard to brainwash somebody who lives in shit in the first place. If you at least have a core to your life that you feel even mild fondness for, it would be much harder for somebody to convince your psyche that an "honorable" suicide in the name of "God" that takes out as many non-believers as possible is a better option than living your life with your friends and family and TV and tacos.

Terraforming, terraforming, terraforming.....

Let's pave the way to a Golden Arch and a Starbucks on every corner in the Middle East and then we can get back to focusing on the bigger threat.... China.


"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Quote:

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That's the trick.....

How do we bring the American way of life to the Middle East?

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Your mistake is in assuming the MIddle East *wants* "the American way of life", or that it's even a desirable thing.


Osama bin Laden's main problem with the West started with what he saw as the Americanization of the globe.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Well... Most of the youngest generation actually wants all the new media and the technology, but the trick they're having to face is balancing that with their also deeply held cultural values.

But the older generations, yeah, kind of think everything is potentially a corrupting influence.

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I don't want to have to pay for terraforming the middle east. That's expensive. Of course right now we're spending oodles of money fighting wars over there, which isn't desirable either. But still.

Jack, your China comment made me laugh, but you have a point.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Now, mostly, I don't discuss this in detail cause most folk are too blinded by their own prejudices and upbringing to do so rationally, but since you seem to at least make the attempt to look past that...

Those were probably Pashtuns, Jack - and they're kinda like that.

I know quite a bit about em cause this ole geezer I used to run to his medical appointments up in Dearborn realized that yes, I actually WAS interested and would expound at length - many of my own religious and personal tenets cross over with Pashto and Ba'hai cause Vajrayana also came from the middle east and India, although there's a lot of divergence, sure.
Even funnier is that his real name was Idi Amin - I'm sure immigration had fun with that.

Some of the other cabbies were arabic too, Syrian I think, Mahmoud and Bob, who we called Bob cause not even arabic people could hope to pronounce his rightful name, in his own words "We've no idea what mother was thinking..", and they were some pretty cool dudes, although they wouldn't teach me anything nasty to say in arabic to add to my weapons-grade vocabulary - and were a mite put out that americans were so unoriginal with the insults slung at them, cause yanno, cabbies are pretty thick skinned when it comes to personal insult.
Might also amuse you, that the Syrians happen to brew some damn good beer, goes by the name of Al-Chark, the other brand, known as Barada, ain't worth the trouble to import.

There's also the mini-mart owners wife down the road a ways, her and I exchange (and try to steal) recipes with each other, and holy moly that shrimpy chick is a freakin valkyrie and quite vicious with a wooden spoon - Kipling was right, never let em give you to the women!

And this Imam who I talk to sometimes - fool made the mistake of thinking he was enlightened while I was tellin him how far he had to go, of course he didn't take that well so I thought a lesson was in order...
(He was gettin the whole treat other people as human thing, he just couldn't seem to wrap his brain around females being people.)
I borrowed a burkha from another friend and waltzed right up to him, unseen and beneath his notice, and slammed a rubber knife into his kidneys, and you can bet THAT got his attention - I asked him how he'd like me to go round teaching their women the finer points of a blade if they didn't start getting the respect due them as human beings and he told me he'd prolly never sleep soundly again, to which I replied "GOOD!"... he's been a lil miffed at me ever since.

What irritates me though is how the feds creep around spyin on em and tryin to pick trouble with em INSTEAD of working WITH them, since they hate them radical fucks even MORE than we do, but no, the FBI around here is every bit as corrupt as the freakin police, and outright assassinating a local fence (who was admittedly a creep, but no terrorist) left a bad taste lingering to this day, especially when they airlifted the police dog they sicced on him after he was down and left him to bleed to death on the floor, with several bullets in his BACK, after he was down...
(Not to mention shooting him an excessive amount of times in the groin to begin with.)

As for the golden arches, we're doin okay on that front, the McDonalds in Dearborn offers chicken nuggets that meet the muslim standard for halal, which is mechanically not that different from kosher, really.
http://islam.about.com/od/dietarylaw/a/halalmcd.htm
Power of the market at work, that - you want em, you can get em, simple as that.
(And note, there's three McDonalds *IN* Mecca)

The sharing of food is a powerful bond, one that sidesteps a lot of political, cultural and other considerations cause it reaches through to a more primitive form of empathy, me and Rev *proved* this by making friends with some of the locals in Kosovo via chocolate chip cookies (I baked and shipped em) and his admittedly pathetic attempts to learn their language - directly resulting in them turning in or pointing out dangerous mined areas or weapons caches to HIM, cause they

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