Season 4 opinions?

POSTED BY: RhymePhile
UPDATED: Saturday, June 25, 2005 17:25
VIEWED: 21761
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RHYMEPHILE

Friday, August 27, 2004 1:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
It's quite clear the birth of Jasmine was the plan all along (I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned in interviews) but what exactly was the point of all the Beast/blotted-Sun stuff then?

Exactly! It didn't make sense then, and even after reading about the season it still doesn't make sense. The Big Evil couldn't have known the gang would bring Angelus back/through/awake, so it wouldn't have sent the Beast just for that.

I was also thinking that perhaps the Beast was sent as something to keep Angel & Co. occupied so that Connor and Cordelia could get together. But then the fact that it wanted Angelus to team up with it makes no sense.

Blotting out the sun obviously has its advantages by allowing the vampires and demons to roam free, but that wouldn't tie in with the whole point of introducing Jasmine.

I dunno, it still doesn't make sense.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of me is beautiful and valuable, even the ugly, stupid, and disgusting parts.

CAPTAINCDC

Friday, August 27, 2004 4:08 PM

I've read here that the beast master could not have known that they would bring forth angelus. Why not? Jasmine arranged for a son to be born of two vampires, an unprecedented event. She arranged for Cordy to ascend under false pretenses. She had the beast do most of her dirty work or distract the gang so that Cordy could do it in his stead. Once Jasmine was born, she made it very clear that she wanted Angel on her side. I think the reason that she wanted him to stay as angelus was because she thought that as long as he was evil that he would not be trying to stop her birth which angel was bent on accomplishing. Also, one possible reason that the Beast was ordered to blot out the sun may have been to create chaos. Which would have allowed the beast and master to carry out their goal with minimal interference especially without angel fighting with the rest of his gang. In fact Angel being Angelus distracted the rest of the gang as well. They not only had to worry about him but the rest of the vampires in the city that were running rampant.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

GROUNDED

Friday, August 27, 2004 5:41 PM

The problem with that is they can explain *anything* away by saying Jasmine 'arranged' it. It's poor plotting.

CAPTAINCDC

Friday, August 27, 2004 7:01 PM

If you don't buy her ability to foresee and affect future events then what do you think about the myriad prophecies that the characters studied and tried to avoid all the time. If Saijahn(SP?) was able to change a prophecy in order to further his own agenda then why could Jasmine not do the same. To me the main difference was that we were aware of what Saijahn was trying to do for the most part all along and we did not find out about Jasmine until it was too late. I don't remember if you are one who thought they just came up with this Jasmine idea overnight toward the end of the season to explain everything, but I do not buy that. Joss thinks everything through so far in advance. I mean usually he knows where he is going a couple of years ahead of time. I may be wrong but that is what I think. And as for the poor plotting, how can that be when almost everything that preceded Jasmine's birth was actually a means to bring about Jasmine and the characters and audience had no idea. They kept us guessing but interested (well some of us I guess) the whole way. To me they explained everything that was necessary to my satisfaction and I enjoyed the Jasmine as metaphor for religious right story arc. Maybe we will just have to agree to disagree.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

ZEEK

Friday, August 27, 2004 7:09 PM

I don't buy it. Why would joss go to so much trouble to come up with the beast and have him do so much stuff just to say in the end, "yeah all that? we were just killing time". They didn't explain it well. Which leads me to believe they weren't planning on doing it at all. They couldn't explain cause they hadn't really thought it through. Jasmine was a weak character all around in my opinion. Add to that how quickly they had to start and end her whole story...just doesn't fit with the rest of Joss's stuff. At least we know he was distracted with 3 series at the time. We'll give him a get out of jail free card on this one.

GROUNDED

Saturday, August 28, 2004 9:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by captaincdc:
To me they explained everything that was necessary to my satisfaction and I enjoyed the Jasmine as metaphor for religious right story arc. Maybe we will just have to agree to disagree.

Yes I know they 'explained' everything but they did so in a rather flimsy way. They could justify absolutely anything by saying 'oh it was pre-ordained, Jasmine arranged for it to happen'. It justisfies even illogical plot threads and that's just not playing fair. But, of course, if you enjoyed it then lucky you ;)

CAPTAINCDC

Wednesday, September 8, 2004 5:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Sometimes David Boreanaz can go over the top with Angelus, and there are moments of it during this season, but I really enjoy watching him portray Angelus. He does a great job of keeping Angel/Angelus completely separate, and gives Angelus a kind of wide-eyed wonder at being evil I find hilarious.

I found this quote by the lovely Amy Acker concerning DB as Angelus. I was not aware he ad libbed as much on that character as he did. I thought you might be interested if you had not heard this before.

Quote:

[on her "Angel" character Fred facing the evil vampire Angelus as played by star David Boreanaz, who ad libbed a lot of his lines:] "I think it's great; he has so much fun playing that character. It's a lot of improvisation and taking risks. You never know what he's going to say; it changes from take to take. He's definitely trying to make a shock; he's going out of his way to make me uncomfortable. It's hard. She [Fred] has heard everything he can do. He's bringing out some of the vulnerability in Fred." [January 23, 2003]

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

RHYMEPHILE

Wednesday, September 8, 2004 6:11 PM

Huh. That's pretty cool, the fact they allowed him to do that, considering what fans are always complaining about, i.e. his poor acting skills. I do love Angelus and wish they kept him around longer. I wonder if his scenes with Eliza Dushku were unscripted?

And ETA: When she says "He's going out of his way to make me uncomfortable" I wonder if AA is talking about herself or Fred? Interesting. Is there more to this article?

And to jump back quickly to the original conversation: the Season 4 commentary on Apocolypse, Nowish has some great info about the season, spoken by the writer and director of the ep (Steven S. DeKnight and Vern Gillum). Seems as though the entire season really covers only a span of 3 weeks, and all the events that transpire occur within those 3 weeks. It puts the season into a kind of perspective.

Also, in the ep "Spin the Bottle" Joss Whedon comments offhandedly about Cordelia's being away as being "tortured." I find that interesting in the scope of what we see happens, since we see the glowing white light around her and assume she's happy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All of me is beautiful and valuable, even the ugly, stupid, and disgusting parts.

CAPTAINCDC

Wednesday, September 8, 2004 6:54 PM

This was the first time I had heard that he ad libbed. I was very surprised. That snippet that I posted earlier is the only reference to his ad libbing scenes that I have been able to find. I think that she was talking about how he made her feel which of course carried over to the character that she was trying to portray, to make her feeling of apprehension seem more realistic. I just got my S4 box set in from amazon, so I cannot wait to get home from work to devour them. I'm really looking forward to listening to the commentaries.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

ZEEK

Wednesday, September 8, 2004 9:35 PM

Let us know if there's any good insight in those DVD's. This season has always sorta left me puzzled.

Like the wolfram and hart part. Why did the beast attack them? Apparently he had no goal whatsoever there...but Jasmine of course wanted him to.

Like they said in the episode I saw on tv last night...the rain of fire, wolfram and hart, bloting out the sun...all those things they list at the end of the season seem to have zero purpose accept to fill up the season with episodes. That doesn't seem like the well planned season that Joss usually delivers.

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