Sometimes ya just gotta step back and ask...
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Monday, January 30, 2023 23:57
VIEWED: 8307
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" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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I've been among the Tebow snarkers, and I would answer that God, if he exists, doesn't give a good gorramn who wins a football game.
This is the kind of religiosity that annoys me, because it looks humble but is in fact exceedingly arrogant. It asserts that a supernatural omnipotent being has chosen them, chosen them to win, cares about their frivolous activities, while meanwhile so many people are dying every day.
For all we know those Muslims in that picture need to pray, because it's the only way to deal with how much their life sucks. But Tebow? Nope.
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Not a fan of Tebow or his religious views, but I have to admit, the guy is pretty awesome,and he walks the walk. He's being who he is, and isn't 'arrogant' in the least about it. The thing is, football players have been taking 1 knee after scoring touchdowns for a long time before Tebow, but only when HE does it, does the MSM go ape over it, and make it an issue.
As it was mentioned - Muslims demand you know, Christians pray you will.
The sort of intolerance being displayed at those who ridicule Tebow, while claiming we all should be more open and accepting of Muslims, is truly baffling.
And the Patriots handle Denver today, by 2 TD's , if not more. Not that I care, or have any $ on the game...
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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I think it's arrogant to thank God for helping you for winning a football game. I don't like it when any of them do it. You should see me whenever the U of U plays TCU, and they're not even professionals.
Tebow has just become the most conspicuous. But I didn't suddenly start disliking it when people started focusing on Tebow. I've always disliked it.
It's almost like when someone says "God saved me from cancer." Oh yeah? Did he kill my Grandpa out of spite then? It's kinda jerkassery. "Thank you God for caring so much about my football career, and not at all about people suffering and dying."
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As for Muslims, I concede some of them might do it, in which case it would be annoying, but my understanding is that their prayers are less along the lines self-aggrandizing, and more "Please God don't smite me or send me to hell. I'm praying to you five times a day so you don't smite me or send me to hell."
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Actually, BYTE- Thank you God for caring about my football career more than you care about the opposing team's.
REALLY???? Yes, really! And God so loved his son... Tebow... that he helped him win the game.
*snicker*
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It's because the Broncos suck.....GO GIANTS!!
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Giants will face the same fate as Denver, both losing on the road this weekend.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Rap,
Invert your images and ask yourself the same question.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Rap,
Invert your images and ask yourself the same question.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
That's nonsensical, and is a pointless game which can only be played if one completely disconnects from the real world of today. I fail to see your point. I know what you're ATTEMPTING here, but it doesn't hold water.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Rap,
Invert your images and ask yourself the same question.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
That's nonsensical, and is a pointless game which can only be played if one completely disconnects from the real world of today. I fail to see your point. I know what you're ATTEMPTING here, but it doesn't hold water.
It's not nonsensical in the least; it's a perfectly valid question. Your implication is that Tebow is totally "okay", because "he walks the walk", but somehow Muslims wanting to pray in their own mosque is somehow NOT okay.
It's a bias you show on a regular basis, while claiming some odd form of "atheism" wherein you believe that there is no god, but the christian god is somehow better than all the other nonexistent ones.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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The Left openly embraces the religion that perpetuates nearly every terrorist act on the globe, yet when Tebow , on his own accord, simply takes to one knee, it's a calamity and an affront to good taste ?
Please.
At face value, one = t'other, and no one should say a damn about either, until it becomes 'law' that we take to 1 knee or both, and submit to an imaginary sky faery. Muslims are all about making Sharia Law mandatory, at least those who run the organization C.A.I.R.
Thus, the merry go 'round of denial and naivety gets cranked up by Kwickie and the Left, turning yet another blind eye to the cancer that is radical Islam to the planet.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Praying to win a football match IS bad taste.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Praying to win a football match IS bad taste.
I'd say so too, but through their acts, HIS glory is revealed. Or some such nonsense.
If it makes y'all feel any better, Tebow's team loses today. God™ is a Patriot's fan, this week.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Invert your images and ask yourself the same question.
Done.
Go Pats!
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Fine, I'll answer that question Mal...
Because what Tebow does doesn't represent flying planes into tall buildings, in the name of his lord and savior.
Or rape school children, shoot them in the back, and then blow them up.
Or saw the heads off innocent men, women and children.
Or give children little plastic 'keys to Paradise', and then force them to scamper across a mine field.
Or stone to death women who get raped.
Or hang gays for being 'gay'.
Or blow up centuries old statues.... I could go on ALL day. But I have a game to watch.
"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.
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I don't get the other photo. Are Muslims holding a public pray off in the US somewhere?
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
That's nonsensical, and is a pointless game which can only be played if one completely disconnects from the real world of today. I fail to see your point. I know what you're ATTEMPTING here, but it doesn't hold water.
You know, for a moment there, I thought you were describing football...
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The War Prayer
by Mark Twain
It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.
Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation
*God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!*
Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory --
An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of ourNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Because what Tebow does doesn't represent flying planes into tall buildings, in the name of his lord and savior.
Or rape school children, shoot them in the back, and then blow them up.
Or saw the heads off innocent men, women and children.
Or give children little plastic 'keys to Paradise', and then force them to scamper across a mine field.
Or stone to death women who get raped.
Or hang gays for being 'gay'.
Or blow up centuries old statues.... I could go on ALL day. But I have a game to watch.
By that argument, what Tebow does represent is flying planes OVER buildings with bombs, killing off those children's parents or destroying their crops so they have no choice but to sell the kids into sex slavery, shooting innocent men, women, and children, or stoning women to death for adultery or rape (which still happens in some Christian parts of the world, and which certainly happened in the old testiment), or beating up/hanging gays for being gay, or defacing statues by the great masters because they don't have certain dangly bits covered.
I mean, most of the same things that Muslims are being condemned for, the stonings for rape, the killing gays, they're done places in Africa, but by Christians as well. And sometimes, like the calls to deface the statues (and actual defacements that happened like say with the Catholic church), it's not even in Africa, but in the modern world.
And how about this? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/03/american-family-associati_n_4
84022.html
In short, both arguments are nonsense because not all Christians do this, and not all Muslims do this.
However, it is in bad taste to wish good things for yourself which mean by necessity wishing bad things for someone else.
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Fallon hits it out of the park!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
By that argument, what Tebow does represent is flying planes OVER buildings with bombs, killing off those children's parents or destroying their crops so they have no choice but to sell the kids into sex slavery, shooting innocent men, women, and children, or stoning women to death for adultery or rape (which still happens in some Christian parts of the world, and which certainly happened in the old testiment), or beating up/hanging gays for being gay, or defacing statues by the great masters because they don't have certain dangly bits covered.
I mean, most of the same things that Muslims are being condemned for, the stonings for rape, the killing gays, they're done places in Africa, but by Christians as well. And sometimes, like the calls to deface the statues (and actual defacements that happened like say with the Catholic church), it's not even in Africa, but in the modern world.
No bombs are being dropped in the name of Jesus, so your comparison is 100% invalid. Only in a very FEW ares, confined to small pockets in Africa, and rarely, do we find extreme cases of Christians doing what Muslims are doing all around the world. From Africa, Europe, the middle East, Russia, to the Philippines... Christians endure such attacks on their religion, like 'art' of a cross sitting in a jar of urine, while Muslims start riots over CARTOONS! The fact you or anyone dares to waste time to compare one to the other is incomprehensible. My only guess is that you simply are ignorant of the long list of atrocities committed by Muslims, world wide, and cling to a Left wing ' only Christians are evil ' mind set, which gives a complete pass to everyone else.
"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Because what Tebow does doesn't represent flying planes into tall buildings, in the name of his lord and savior.
etc...
Lordy, this again! *BIG eyeroll*
There have been whole RWED threads explaining how every deity out there has nutjobs doing nutty shit in His/Her/Its name. Not that you can process such information, Rappy. You really are desperate to cling to the idea that the actions of a few crazy bastards represents billions of Muslims. You really need to live in hate, don't you?
Sad. But also somehow fascinating, that a grown(?) man can be so determined to be a bigoted hypocrite.
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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The Left openly embraces the religion that perpetuates nearly every terrorist act on the globe, yet when Tebow , on his own accord, simply takes to one knee, it's a calamity and an affront to good taste ?
I don't think the left does openly embrace Islam, does it? I guess there are those of us, not sure if we all sit on one side or other of any spectrum, that tries to separate the fanatics who commit atrocities in the name of Islam, with ordinary Muslims who do not.
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Muslims are all about making Sharia Law mandatory, at least those who run the organization C.A.I.R.
Even as you admit, not all Muslims want sharia law mandatory. There are actually plenty of Muslims who do not support theocracy, and who are actual leftist in their views. I certainly, as someone 'left' condone sharia law being upheld in western nations, but I guess people are free to choose their own laws in their own countries, even if I find them abhorrent.
Quote:
Thus, the merry go 'round of denial and naivety gets cranked up by Kwickie and the Left, turning yet another blind eye to the cancer that is radical Islam to the planet.
Who here supports or apologises for the actions of radical Muslims?
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It's funny that you talk about being able to process info, when you so clearly CAN'T process the facts concerning what Muslims do, world wide, NOW, TODAY.
BILLIONS of Muslim? Didn't know it was 2 or more now. And as if that some how detracts from all the atrocities they HAVE committed ?
It's not " a few crazies ". It's a global network of radical, well organized and dedicated zealots, intent on not merely spreading their message, but taking over. Take a look at Europe and Africa, if you don't believe me.
Never mind. You won't. You're too worried of being called a 'bigot', you'll simply ignore what's actually going on.
There are 2 issues here in this thread. One, small, at how the media are crucifying Tebow for him being just a good guy, and the bigger picture, as to why so many on the Left are scared to criticize Muslims, but are quick as bunnies to jump all over Christians, for the most trivial and inane issues.
:crazy:
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Who here supports or apologises for the actions of radical Muslims?
Anyone who denies that there ARE radical muslims, or that folks who run CAIR or want the 9/11 Mosque to be built are in any way trying to establish the Ummah ( no relation to Uma Thurman ) and establish Sharia Law as THE one law, globally.
Muslims who aren't in that camp ? I'd happily share a cup of tea, or a fresca, or what ever. But I don't deny there are others, many others, who would have my head if I didn't convert to Islam.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Guys;being from across the pond, I have no clue about American Football players, particularly the gentlemen in question.But sportsman the world over pray to the heavens for a win.Musicians go on stage praying for a storming gig. People go into job interviews making the sign of the cross to get the gig.Every person has some little nod to the skies to give themselves a little boost.
Is the person who prays at night before sleep selfish and arrogant? I am completely atheist myself and I find all of it claptrap.But EVERY SINGLE RELIGIOUS PERSON, regardless of their faith, regardless of that being in a group or on their own, is praying for THEIR own life to be touched by a deity.The guys rubbing there noses in the pavement are probably MORE deluded, because they have had that shit FORCED into them since being popped outta the womb. At least the footballer is making a conscious choice to ask for divine intervention.Deluded he may be, but why pray at all if you are under the conception that your prayers will NOT be answered. I dont see the argument here.
Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!
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Wow, AURaptor, welcome to the point, the example was supposed to be ridiculous. I don't think you really understood what I was saying.
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Peacekeeper: There are some of your examples that don't involve getting a boon at the expense of other people, and some that do. We're mostly objecting to the ones that do.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's funny that you talk about being able to process info, when you so clearly CAN'T process the facts concerning what Muslims do, world wide, NOW, TODAY.
BILLIONS of Muslim? Didn't know it was 2 or more now. And as if that some how detracts from all the atrocities they HAVE committed ?
If a billion muslims were into terrorism we would really be in the shit, sorry cavetroll, poo.
Yes, I do see a hardlining of attitudes in many Muslim countries over the past few decades. I think the reasons for this are complex, and in part due to political unrest in countries, much of which can be attributed directly to actions of western nations. Iran is an example of that. It's not so much that Islam breeds radical loonies, as those people use their religion as an excuse to carry out acts of vengence.
By and large, the Muslim predominated countries bear little threat in the world, in my view. I think while people were wringing their hand over a few fanatics, and yes, I do see in the grand scheme of things they are few, we've had an increasingly wealthy populous, organised, technological advanaced nation increase its powerbase exponentially in the world. China will make the thread of Islam look like a stinging ant biting the heel of a giant, which was all it really ever has been.
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There are 2 issues here in this thread. One, small, at how the media are crucifying Tebow for him being just a good guy, and the bigger picture, as to why so many on the Left are scared to criticize Muslims, but are quick as bunnies to jump all over Christians, for the most trivial and inane issues.
You were the one who connected those two issues, though for the life of me I can't see how they are connected, except for the grand theme of religion. Why can't someone criticise a Christian without being accused of being a hypocrit? I don't understand the connection you are trying to make.
:crazy:
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Anyone who denies that there ARE radical muslims, or that folks who run CAIR or want the 9/11 Mosque to be built are in any way trying to establish the Ummah ( no relation to Uma Thurman ) and establish Sharia Law as THE one law, globally.
Muslims who aren't in that camp ? I'd happily share a cup of tea, or a fresca, or what ever. But I don't deny there are others, many others, who would have my head if I didn't convert to Islam.
I don't get some of your references, which must be local issues. But who denies that their are radical Muslims? I'm pretty sure I don't know anyone.
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PK - My guess is that the Left particularly dislikes Tim Tebow, for the main fact that he and his mom made an ad which, quite harmlessly, was pro life. The true story of his mom being told , by her doctors, that due to complications, she should strongly consider aborting her unborn child. She declined, and later gave birth to the man in question.
And I have to assume that it further infuriates the Left that Tim ( who by all means SHOULD have been aborted ) goes off to the Philippines and helps the poor by assisting in free surgical procedures, as well as a long list of other extremely commendable, good guy activities.
Basically, he's the sort of guy that makes most other humans feel guilty as hell, for not being all they can be, and to the Left, that's a terrible crime.
* Oh, and it's half time , and Broncos ( Tim's team ) is getting waxed by the New England Patriots, 35-7. God™ must have $ on the Pats and over.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Why is either okay? Both are ridicules behaviors, really.
What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.
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Quote:Strawman much????
Basically, he's the sort of guy that makes most other humans feel guilty as hell, for not being all they can be, and to the Left, that's a terrible crime.
Naaaahhhhh...........
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Strawman much????
Basically, he's the sort of guy that makes most other humans feel guilty as hell, for not being all they can be, and to the Left, that's a terrible crime.
Naaaahhhhh...........
Well, to be honest, I AM grasping at straws, since the left's vitriol towards Tebow does defy reason and logic.
By all means, feel free to add your 2 cents.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The Left openly embraces the religion that perpetuates nearly every terrorist act on the globe, yet when Tebow , on his own accord, simply takes to one knee, it's a calamity and an affront to good taste ?
Really? The entire "Left" does this? I've never embraced Islam, or any other organized religion. I embrace people believing what they want to believe, and I embrace my being able to mock them for those beliefs.
I don't recall ever saying I embraced Islam or any other religion, but maybe you can quote me back where I did, since you seem to intent on tying me to your strawman you're kicking around here.
Please, indeed.
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At face value, one = t'other, and no one should say a damn about either, until it becomes 'law' that we take to 1 knee or both, and submit to an imaginary sky faery. Muslims are all about making Sharia Law mandatory, at least those who run the organization C.A.I.R.
Bullshit. You've no evidence of any of these things. But little does that matter to you - you've also no evidence that Muslims are behind "nearly every terrorist act on the globe", but by all means, don't ever let facts stand in the way of your idiotic belief system...
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Thus, the merry go 'round of denial and naivety gets cranked up by Kwickie and the Left, turning yet another blind eye to the cancer that is radical Islam to the planet.
You mean that denial and naiveté where I claim that Christians never do terrorist acts? Oh, wait - that would be you who believes that.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's not " a few crazies ". It's a global network of radical, well organized and dedicated zealots, intent on not merely spreading their message, but taking over. Take a look at Europe and Africa, if you don't believe me.
Well said.
These radical zealots must be stopped.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Well, to be honest, I AM grasping at straws...
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was...
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"Sometimes ya just gotta step back and ask..."
... why the guy who prays in the front of the stadium proclaming his personal righteousness is looked on with less favor by the LORD than the guy at the back of the stadium asking forgiveness? Is that the question?
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Sometimes ya just gotta step back and ask..."
... why the guy who prays in the front of the stadium proclaming his personal righteousness is looked on with less favor by the LORD than the guy at the back of the stadium asking forgiveness? Is that the question?
Because the guy in the front of the stadium ( what ever that's suppose to mean ) gets paid millions of dollars and is the focus of so much more attention than the other guy. That's what the media are pushing here, not Tebow.
He's gonna do what he's gonna do. It's THE MEDIA that's blowing this all out of proportion. Why didn't any late night t.v. host do a musical skit about the guy ( again, it's all relative ) in the BACK of the stadium ?
And Kwickie - Thanks for making my point for me, that it was indeed just a FEW ( I count 4, plus the camera guy ) breaking rules of conduct by the US Marines. When the Marines change those rules, and make it fine and dandy to wiz on the corpses ( Hey, Obama might get this one right, for once ) of the enemy, then you'll start to be able to show them on equal footing w/ the terrorists. But not until then. Sorry.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Bullshit. You've no evidence of any of these things.
No evidence ? Really?
Huh.
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit upheld a lower court's decision to block the implementation of an Oklahoma constitutional amendment that would prohibit courts from applying -- or even considering to apply -- "Sharia law" and "international law."
In response to a lawsuit filed in 2010 by Muneer Awad, the head of CAIR's Oklahoma office (CAIR-OK), the lower court blocked implementation of the "Save Our State Amendment" based on arguments that it would unconstitutionally disfavor an entire faith and deny Oklahoma's Muslims access to the judicial system on the same terms as every other citizen. The state had appealed that ruling saying the United States' U.S. Constitution is the law of the land.
"We have a large number of Jews in the U.S. Have we ever used the Pentateuch or the Talmud in U.S. courts? Unlike Islamists, Jews never attempted to interject their law into U.S. jurisprudence," claims Mike Baker, a political strategist and attorney.
http://www.examiner.com/law-enforcement-in-national/cair-aclu-court-bl
ocks-anti-sharia-law-oklahoma
Quote:
But little does that matter to you - you've also no evidence that Muslims are behind "nearly every terrorist act on the globe", but by all means, don't ever let facts stand in the way of your idiotic belief system...
List of Islamic terrorist attacks around the world, since 9/11/2001.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks
Shooting wars around the world -
Depending on how one defines such things, virtually every one of the military conflicts around the world involve Islamic extremists, fighting in their god's name. ( So any counter claim that any /all US military actions are simply " Christian ", and that there's no distinction between the two, is absurd and ridiculous, and not in the least bit credible.
Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:
Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.
A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.
Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.
Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage
Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.
Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.
Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.
Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.
http://www.boortz.com/weblogs/nealz
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Quote:Since when? WWII? Vietnam? Chile? Nicaragua? Panama? Grenada? Stress is causing your focus to be unrealistically narrow. You see a small portion of time and expand it until it takes over our entire history, and the history of the world.
Depending on how one defines such things, virtually every one of the military conflicts around the world involve Islamic extremists, fighting in their god's name.
Oh, and BTW- RE Tebow... I find it funny that several things I are dislike are conflated into one image: football mania (hate it, but I realize I'm in a minority here), religion (think it's stupid too), arrogance, and hypocrisy. I was brought up religious, and I think you missed Kiki's point: Here is part of the Bible which addresses that point, Luke 18:9-14
Quote:Yanno, as far as I know Tebow is a good guy, he's not an adulterer and he gives money to the poor and all that other good stuff. But to think that the god of his religion would favor HIS football career over somebody else's...? (because, after all, for Tebow to win means somebody else has to lose) just speaks of self-centeredness and righteousness that I find somewhere between disgusting, funny, and squirmingly embarrassing.
He spoke also this parable to certain people who were convinced of their own righteousness, and who despised all others. "Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
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Sig
Currently, as in TODAY. Right now. And please, go right ahead and keep ignoring the list of Islamic attacks SINCE 9/11/2001. You're doing a hell of a great job of it so far.
It's you, who is ignoring the present, and trying to white wash today's events under the backdrop of 100's of years in human history, where quite frankly, none of that applies to the problems of NOW.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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OH, "Today, right now". So we ignore all of the killing WE'VE done because it doesn't fit your notion? We just ignore the millions we've wiped off the face of the earth because they're an inconvenient truth that doesn't address YOUR angst?
Oh, BTW, I added something about Tebow to my post above.
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Shit. Lost my post. Damned computer.
I got as far as Quote:
with which I fully agree. I didn't need to read further because I knew precisely where it was going from there. Also it is sad...actually, beyond sad, more like ridiculous and pathetic...the absurdity of Rap around "God is on our side", "We're the good guys, they're evil", etc., etc., ad nauseum.
Lordy, this again! *BIG eyeroll*
I agree that there is no comparison. I don't know where the prayer event was, but it's a group of Muslims practicing their religion in the way they always practice their religion. Nothing new or original. Christians pray together in a group, and sometimes get on their knees to do it, also. In private, because that's the way Christians practice THEIR religion. But one man, at a SPORTS EVENT, thanking God for helping him make a touchdown, is so absurdly aggrandizing as to be worthy of ridicule, even from all Christians except the tiny minority of idiots who need to make a spectacle out of it.
It's nothing but a sign of the times. To the tune of the--I believe it was Kennel Ration?--ad:
I'm more Christian than you are,
I'm more Christian than you.
I'm more Christian 'cuz I make a show of it,
I'm more Christian than you.
That attitude served our forefathers well in the Crusades, when horrible things were done to people in the name of religion; some of it persists among Christians, but luckily MOST of us have outgrown it. Only that small minority of religious zealots in America feel the necessity of foisting their own religion on others.
I saw the Tebowie thing and it had me laughing hysterically, and I never even heard of Tim Tebow or knew what he'd done before this issue came up, so you can't blame "the left" for hating him for any reason--I don't hate him, I feel sorry for the idiot and his need for grandiosity. It gave me a moment of enjoyable hilarity and the whole kerfuffle is deserving of just that much satire, nothing more.
As to praying to God to win a war, or anything else, it's despicable in my opinion, for all the reasons expressed here.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
OH, "Today, right now". So we ignore all of the killing WE'VE done because it doesn't fit your notion? We just ignore the millions we've wiped off the face of the earth because they're an inconvenient truth that doesn't address YOUR angst?
Oh, BTW, I added something about Tebow to my post above.
The MILLIONS we've wiped off the Earth? What in the hell are you even talking about ?
I'm guessing it's NOT abortion...hmmmm
And it's likely NOT the # of lives lost to disease, like malaria, which continues to needlessly kill in poorer parts of the world, because some UN eocnazi bureaucrats have banned the spraying of pesticides, and instead handed out nets, for folks to hang over their bed....
I admit, ya got me on that one.
And also, as for this...
Quote:
Yanno, as far as I know Tebow is a good guy, he's not an adulterer and he gives money to the poor and all that other good stuff. But to think that the god of his religion would favor HIS football career over somebody else's...? (because, after all, for Tebow to win means somebody else has to lose) just speaks of self-centeredness and righteousness that I find somewhere between disgusting, funny, and squirmingly embarrassing.
I have no real interest in Tebow. He played at a rival school, and now plays for a pro team I've NEVER cared for, but even given all that, I don't hate the guy. And also, given all that, I DON'T feel, or get the sense that the message he's sending is one of "God™ likes ME the best, so MY team will win" or that he so much as THINKS that, even a little.
I suspected Tom Brady and the Pats would easily beat Denver, and they did. While I am a bit put off by Brady and his excellence on the field, it doesn't bother me to see them win, in the least. Nor would it have made me thrilled to see him lose, and Tebow win. I just don't get the animosity over the whole mess.
"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.
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"Because the guy in the front of the stadium ( what ever that's suppose to mean ) gets paid millions of dollars and is the focus of so much more attention than the other guy. ..."
Well, first of all I dispute the idea that due to his praying Tebow is an example of a good x-tian. There's a lot more I think is very wrong with the whole premise of the story, but this will do for a start.
Luke 18:10
"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I saw the Tebowie thing and it had me laughing hysterically, and I never even heard of Tim Tebow or knew what he'd done before this issue came up...
Shocker there, really :eyeroll:
Quote:
so you can't blame "the left" for hating him for any reason--I don't hate him, I feel sorry for the idiot and his need for grandiosity. It gave me a moment of enjoyable hilarity and the whole kerfuffle is deserving of just that much satire, nothing more.
As to praying to God to win a war, or anything else, it's despicable in my opinion, for all the reasons expressed here.
Apparently, the Left don't even NEED a reason to hate... they just do, because John Stewart or Jimmie Fallon or who ever feels the need to ridicule something, or someone, and there you have it ! Hardy-har har!
You don't even know the guy, Niki, and you're feeling sorry for him, laughing at him, all because of some late night show's skit ? Tells me how superficial and quick to judge YOU are.
Think about that one for a moment... if you a can.
"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.
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Quote:One can pray anywhere... silently, for a moment, in the locker room. Tebow is making a show of it, just like the Pharisee. Apparently he hasn't read his Bible.
And also, given all that, I DON'T feel, or get the sense that the message he's sending is one of "God™ likes ME the best, so MY team will win" or that he so much as THINKS that, even a little.
Quote:
“First and foremost I’ve got to thank my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and my teammates.
Quote:Yep, Jesus had a hand in his winning. God cares about his career.
“He reminds us that strength comes in many forms & some people have what can be described only as a gift for winning
As for why Muslims praying is "acceptable" but Tebow is not... Neither one of them are acceptable in my point of view. But I react to Tebow badly because, in addition to praying, he seems like an insufferable self-centered prig. Good enough for you?
-------------
Quote:Well, we can start with the 2.5 million in Vietnam and go from there. And I don't mean from starvation and disease and sanctions, I mean bullets, bombs and missiles fired by or provided by the USA, with "made in USA" all over them. This is a discussion I've already had with Geezer: I listed all of our interventions since 1900. It was an impressive list, and included the overthrow of democratically elected leaders and the installation of tyrants in every nation in Central and South America (except Costa Rica), Cuba, Haiti, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the Phillippines, Indonesia, East Timor, etc. This wasn't always in the distant past either, but in my living memory and (if you are as old as some say you are) within yours too. And the list of dead was impressively long, and - yes- went up into the millions.
The MILLIONS we've wiped off the Earth? What in the hell are you even talking about ?
Yeah, I know your eyes probably glazed over and it all rolled off you like water off a duck's back, but this is ALSO real-world history, and while YOU may not care about what the USA has done in other countries, those other countries do. So if I "got ya" on that one, that only speaks to your ignorance of real-world events and your excessively narrow focus and lack of attention to what people around the world REALLY think of us; not the happy stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. And that is why you will be surprised and shocked by events.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:One can pray anywhere... silently, for a moment, in the locker room. Tebow is making a show of it, just like the Pharisee. Apparently he hasn't read his Bible.
And also, given all that, I DON'T feel, or get the sense that the message he's sending is one of "God™ likes ME the best, so MY team will win" or that he so much as THINKS that, even a little.
I'm guessing the Rev Phelps and his clan might agree with you as well.
However, this completely disingenuous nonsense about 'praying in public' has been going on for as long as athletes have been shown on t.v.
But because Tim was a high profile player in college, and now is in the NFL, the criticism has only amplified. And, to be honest, I'd have to guess that 90% of all this fuss was generated first here...
OMG !!! THE OUTRAGE!!!
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Look, rappy you asked a really really stupid question: why one was acceptable and the other was not. You presuppose that EITHER one is acceptable. Now, I've already answered your question from MY point of view: I don't like either one, but I find Tebow to be self-centered. Are you trying to get the video to speak for me? Put words in my mouth? Are you not somehow satisfied with the answer I gave? How many times do I have to repeat myself? Or are you just looking for the answer that YOU will accept, because it (once again) supports your POV?
BTW_ I answered your question about the millions of people that we wiped off the face of the earth in my previous post.
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ALL those deaths in Vietnam , you're laying at the feet of the US ?
Really?
Wow.
I'm guessing you voted for John Kerry, no ?
Good grief. The blinders you were as you go through life.... unbelievable.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Yes, you moron. We supported the French colonial power. Ho Chi Minh actually came to us USA for help, because he thought that we would understand a colony's fight for independence. Silly him. It was only after we turned him down that he turned to the communists for help.
And, how do you explain all the OTHER interventions? God, you got some whopping big blinders on.
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I missed the point where we told Ho Chi Minh to convert to Christianity, or die.
Huh.
And the NVA, the Red Chinese... didn't kill hardly anyone ? It was all on us ?
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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No, we just insisted that the Vietnamese accept their colonial status. Because the powerful making money off of little people is OUR religion... that is the basis of nearly all of our invasions and interventions except WWII and a few others (Serbia/Kosovo). And of course "they" killed people. So did we. We kinda did carpet-bombed and napalmed and sprayed with Agent Orange (chemical warfare, it got our guys, too). So we killed pretty much en masse because we had the firepower to do it.
Yanno Rappy, I don't expect you to believe me. (You should know by now how I feel about "belief"!) I want you to challenge what I say, try to disprove my fact with other facts, look it up. Show me that we have not killed millions. Show me where we have materially improved the lives of ordinary people as a result of our military action... not "might-have-beens" or "what we intendeds" but real results. Because I have the feeling that when you go into a nation and you kill a lot of people, you had better assuage the survivors with something better, or they will hate you as long as they live and so will their children. I could be wrong, of course.
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Sorry Sig, but your argument is weak. To compare US foreign policy of 50 year ago to what's going on TODAY, with the radical Islamic militants is intentional ignorance on your part, and a lame diversionary gimmick.
I frankly don't give a damn how worked up you are about Vietnam. It's irrelevant to the issues we're facing today.
"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.
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And getting back to my original point... which would you rather have.
Church bells, once a week, signalling a call to mass ?
Or a call to prayer, 5 x's a day, every day ?
Given a free choice to ignore one, or a knife to the neck to submit and obey to the other, I'll take the former, thank you very much.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:Oh my god, rappy, how plainly to I have to dissect this for you? WE use various kinds of feel-good rationalizations to kill, terrorize and maim. THEY use feel-good rationalizations to kill, terrorize, and maim. How are we and they different? If we do what they do, how does that win friends and support? If we continue to do what they do, how is that going to make us the good guys?
Sorry Sig, but your argument is weak. To compare US foreign policy of 50 year ago to what's going on TODAY, with the radical Islamic militants is intentional ignorance on your part, and a lame diversionary gimmick.
Quote:Then what about what we did in Iraq? IT WAS NOT AN ISLAMIC NATION. Nonetheless we killed hundreds of thousands of people. At our withdrawal, their electricity is still no better than under Saddam, their food supply is worse, and their dispersed sectarian violence is a direct replacement for Saddam's centralized terrorism. Tell me, how have we materially benefited the survivors of our invasion? Why should they love us or appreciate our killing of them? Oh, and by the way, we opened the door for radical jihadism in Iraq. too. Yipee ki yay!
I frankly don't give a damn how worked up you are about Vietnam. It's irrelevant to the issues we're facing today.
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Quote:Neither. Yanno, for an atheist you're awfully pro-Christian.
Church bells, once a week, signalling a call to mass ? Or a call to prayer, 5 x's a day, every day ?
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You know what I think these Christian/Muslim debate threads need every time I see one???
A nice slide show of lots of bastards from all the major religions in the world, and a rating system like one star=minor bastard, two stars and so on... Then we can all see which religion has the shortest slide show, so we know just who's who, and who to not hang around with...
Just a thought...
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And getting back to my original point... which would you rather have.
Church bells, once a week, signalling a call to mass ?
Or a call to prayer, 5 x's a day, every day ?
Given a free choice to ignore one, or a knife to the neck to submit and obey to the other, I'll take the former, thank you very much.
Actually having holidayed in a predominantly Muslim country, the call to prayer by the muezzin is really quite splendid. And like church bells, also splendid, especially in parts of Europe, I enjoyed and walked on, unmoved to prayer.
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When Christians start acting like Islamic radicals, then call me.
And Iraq ? What is your point ?
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Who, but someone quite unhinged in their hatred, would compare this footballer with radical Muslims? Really, you need to get a grip.
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Rappy, I have made my point about four times in this thread. If you haven't got if BY NOW, making my point again isn't going to help. You are obdurate in your ignorance.
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No ignorance at all on my point, you're just not making your case. The result of the Iraq war is a totally separate issue, not remotely comparable to the threat of radical Islam.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Whatever.
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I guess no one here has been following the very "Christian" response to Jessica Ahlquist, then...
Or perhaps the religious involvement of Blackwater, which borders on the downright creepifying...
Or the relationship between the Assembly of God, the juvie justice system, and our military...
Just cause you don't WANT to see it, don't mean it ain't there.
Me, I'd love to see ALL them damn fanatics on both sides kill each other, and to me the only essential difference between islamofascists and christofascists is that the christofascists are over HERE and an actual imminent, ongoing threat, and the islamofascists are over THERE and no such problem - seriously, they've been unable to do one damn thing to hurt us without the *help* of our so-called protectors to do it!
(Again, WHO gave Ramzi Youssef the bomb?)
Problem is, despite assertations to the contrary, yon pigheaded fool here *is* a christofascist, or at least okay with the notion of THEM ramming belief down peoples throat on a pike, which is why I consider him some lower form of life and don't bother with his dumb ass, usually.
Yeah, I got my biases too, since my notion of the true face of evil is what you see when you pull the mask off christianity, something ever so reinforced by their conduct towards the young, the helpless - like all bullies, strong to the weak, and weak to the strong, sure...
And cause of that someone who is christian and NOT evil starts from negative numbers with me and must prove out, and that's gonna remain so till they quit supporting, covering for, aiding and abetting such behavior instead of disowning those who engage in it and pitching them out on their ear.
I hold THAT one against islam as well, AND judaism, for it is by the acceptance of evils that we internalize and normalize them, which poisons us, brings down the veil of the Blind God so that we can see only the evils of others and never our own.
A real human being is willing to own their own conduct, and that should tellya why I do not choose to grant that consideration to some.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Shame on you for bringing a well thought out response to this thread. This is for cliched one liners and images only, thank you very much.
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Meh heh heh, it's a well known fact that I am bloody well shameless, being more Libertine than Libertarian... and a sheet or two to the wind besides, Alex makes some niiiice homebrew he does...
-F
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Quote:God, is YOUR brain wrapped in a towel? If it's not a Islamist threat, it's not an issue?
When Christians start acting like Islamic radicals, then call me. ...No ignorance at all on my point, you're just not making your case. The result of the Iraq war is a totally separate issue, not remotely comparable to the threat of radical Islam.
Yeah, so there are murderers and terrorists over there killing peeps. Yanno what? THAT INCLUDES US. I see not one jot of difference between them and us, except we have more firepower. So if you would stop feeling so self-congratulatory for a few nanoseconds, you might actually come to a solution to your fears. Because that's ALL that's driving you: fear. And you've got no reason to be in such a pissy panic.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Actually having holidayed in a predominantly Muslim country, the call to prayer by the muezzin is really quite splendid. And like church bells, also splendid, especially in parts of Europe, I enjoyed and walked on, unmoved to prayer.
Uhgh, you can keep 'em... My gran lived near a church that went off every 15 damnded minutes until a few years ago, I could not take a nap or sit outside and have a conversation with those things around. YOU may have been unmoved, but they made me nuts! Subtle intimidation, says I. You wanna ring them IN your church, be my guest...Outside is my earspace, too. Not to mention legally I'm not allowed to make massive noise, why should they get to??
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This is typical of people on the left, freak out because someone is praying, oh no what will we do?!!!! I get soooooooooo tired of this kind of whinging. What the football player does is his business, if he wants to pray for his team then so be it. I agree that a football match isn't really the most important thing and its probably not something that will change the course of the world, but praying just to pray is his right and I believe as a Christian that its a good thing.
Signe does make an excellent point though with the Luke reference, it can be construed as showing off which is something that God does not like, Jesus mentions it several times, how we aren't supposed to show off when we pray. So really good point Signe and the only valid complaint I've seen about the situation.
If you were to count the number of religeously motivated murders and mamings in the last 20 years committed by folks claiming to glorify God and the number of folks claiming to glorify Allah (spelling?) I think we all know what we'd find in the statistics. True there are whackos and murderers in every country and of every faith, I don't dispute that, but to deny the numbers right now would be silly. I don't think our war with Iraq counts as a religeously motivated event, I don't care if Frem would be contrary in what he thinks because he just has it in for most religeons anyways so he looks for oppertunities to blame them for everything, especially mine because its his pet favorite to crack on.
I do think Frem's Twain story makes some really valid points though and should serve as a reminder about how one might want to pray. Everyone who goes into a war thinks God is on their side. And war is a horrible thing that I'd rather avoid than get involved in, unless its absolutely necessary.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Whinging? Did any one of us who doesn't like Tebow bring up the thread? They asked my opinion. I answered, and I answered why.
Much as people get accused of being obsessed about some things, it's rarely ever US bringing it up. Why's that?
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I don't think anyone said he doesn't have a right to do it, only that it was kind of tacky. Personally, I have a desire that people keep their god bothering private, but no doubt i'm going to have to live with that not being the case. Still, I'm VERY happy to live in a country that is much more secular than the US.
It's Rappy's insane argument that if you criticise it, you're an apologist for terrorism and you can't wait for sharia law to be mandatory. Work that one out if you can.
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Quote:It's not an issue I which should be obfuscated and diluted with nonsensical crap like Blackwater or Vietnam. The issue of Islamic radicalism is very real, and shouldn't be glossed over by lumping it in with other, irrelevant issues.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:God, is YOUR brain wrapped in a towel? If it's not a Islamist threat, it's not an issue?
When Christians start acting like Islamic radicals, then call me. ...No ignorance at all on my point, you're just not making your case. The result of the Iraq war is a totally separate issue, not remotely comparable to the threat of radical Islam.
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Yeah, so there are murderers and terrorists over there killing peeps. Yanno what? THAT INCLUDES US. I see not one jot of difference between them and us, except we have more firepower. So if you would stop feeling so self-congratulatory for a few nanoseconds, you might actually come to a solution to your fears. Because that's ALL that's driving you: fear. And you've got no reason to be in such a pissy panic.
That you see no difference is the problem.
And the only fear I have is people like you, who pretend there is no problem.
"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.
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Feh, ain't what someone BELIEVES Riona, it's how they ACT...
If the mainstream religions want my respect they can earn it by pitching those kinds of creeps out on their ear, disowning and shunning them, instead of covering for them and making excuses, and I hold em all responsible for that, yanno ?
As for individuals, they would do better with me via setting an EXAMPLE than offering threats and malice, which both you and Anthony do, quite credibly - cause the other end of example setting is the obnoxious, arrogant hubris of folk who seem to think they own a Dietys favor or something...
Is not Pride the mother of em all, yes ?
For mine own my beliefs don't work that way, I ain't supposed to set an example and prosthelysing is absolutely, utterly forbidden since it's actually strongly encouraged to out and out strangle to death people who do so, but I won't get into that... I will say I am perhaps a bit unfaithful in that my tolerance goes a bit farther than a strict interpretation of my beliefs would allow, but to not bend the rules is an even less faithful interpretation - it's complicated.
Anyhows, I could care less about some obnoxious football player who I've never even watched.
I worry more about folk who wanna thrust theirs on me, and being an obnoxious ass about what you believe does not necessarily include pushing it at folk.
Speakin of obnoxious...
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Uhgh, you can keep 'em... My gran lived near a church that went off every 15 damnded minutes until a few years ago, I could not take a nap or sit outside and have a conversation with those things around. YOU may have been unmoved, but they made me nuts! Subtle intimidation, says I. You wanna ring them IN your church, be my guest...Outside is my earspace, too. Not to mention legally I'm not allowed to make massive noise, why should they get to??
I feel EXACTLY the same about them salvation army bellringers, right down to the intimidation part - however since it appears to cheer and amuse others, particularly children, I just grit my teeth and say nothing, since I rate their happiness as greater than soothing my temporary and mild annoyance.
-Frem
PS. Ain't just christians, we got a resident who's islamic and was starting to annoy his neighbors with it, till I pointed out that Allah can hear you whether you whisper or shout, and invoked the Compact of Medina on him, which flummoxed him totally that a heretic non-believer would even know what it was, much less invoke it on behalf of his christian neighbors.
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This is exactly what's wrong with the world, and you can quote me, this absolutism, this one side versus the other. Crazy Islamists and Crazy Christians are both bad. Why even have this discussion? We have real problems that we need to work on.
I'd also like to add that this country was founded on something called Religious Freedom, correct? I should think Founding Father Patriot huggers (who ever you are) would be all about keeping that intact. Maybe it was a limited time offer?
I personally could care less if he prays, do your thang, whatever, though it is a bit like SignyM says, self-centered. TT's a good guy - we could use more like him. And sometimes athletes pray more like, "Please keep me from letting my teammates down... let me play up to my abilities..." it is as PeaceKeeper said, more like self-hypnosis and a way of dealing with FEAR.
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Quote:
It's not an issue I which should be obfuscated and diluted with nonsensical crap like Blackwater or Vietnam. The issue of Islamic radicalism is very real, and shouldn't be glossed over by lumping it in with other, irrelevant issues.
Then let me address your fears.
It's quite obvious that you're NOT afraid of "terrorism". You're really not. Stop saying so, and stop bringing it up. Stop re-running the image of a man holding up a bloody head. That isn't what bothers you. What REALLY bothers you is that the man has a kefiya on his head, not a helmet. If he had a helmet on his head, you'd be thinking GO TEAM! You're all for terrorists, as long as you think they're on your side. Jack Bauer, anyone? So don't tell us that you're afraid of "terrorism", please don't even bring that up again. This isn't a moral question for you about the means to an end, it's (in your mind) a question of survival. You're in a panic about radical Islam, so be specific.
What is it, specifically, that bothers you? Do you see the world being taken over by Islam? Do you fear that the message of a militant religion is stronger than the message of a capitalist economy?
Maybe it would help you to know what is driving this militancy, how the Muslim message stacks up against the West's, and possibly what to do about it. Because IMHO, there are three things driving radical Islam: unemployment, nationalism, and unity of purpose.
Most of the Middle East has a serious unemployment problem. Believe it or not, the more extreme Islamic groups actually act as aid societies in Egypt, Pakistan etc. bringing bread, water, security, and schools to poor neighborhoods. Sure, the schools are madrasses (funded by Saudi Arabia) but at least the kids are off the street doing something purposeful. And national governments find Islam a useful distraction to avoid more pointed questions about corruption.
Then, there is nationalism. It burns if your nation is invaded and occupied. Young men think of vengeance. Fertile ground for recruitment.
Finally, there is unity of purpose. The message of Islam is simple and direct, and everyone knows their place in the faith- young men particularly, as they are highly rewarded for being warriors for the cause. What is the message of the West? What is YOUR message, specifically: Every man for himself and god against all? That message does not satisfy the natural human longing to be part of something bigger, or the desire for fairness.
Let me close with two curious facts: We invaded and destroyed the ONLY two governments that were adamantly secular (Do you know which ones those were?) and we support two tyrannies which actively export radical Islam. (Do you know which ones those are?) AND YOU SUPPORTED ALL OF THE ABOVE. So what is our government's agenda, anyway?? It seems at cross-purposes to yours, and you seem to be unaware of that.
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Excellently said, Wish! And shows just how ridiculous these threads get to be.
A nice slide show of lots of bastards from all the major religions in the world, and a rating system like one star=minor bastard, two stars and so onQuote:
Amen, Pizmo.
This is exactly what's wrong with the world, and you can quote me, this absolutism, this one side versus the other. Crazy Islamists and Crazy Christians are both bad. Why even have this discussion? We have real problems that we need to work on. Quote:
From all that's been happening, that seems to have totaly escaped the consciousness of our country--sadly, it seems especially those who are proudest to call themselves "Christians", for quite some time now.
I'd also like to add that this country was founded on something called Religious Freedom, correct?Quote:
Riona, it has nothing to do with "whinging". Those of us who DO respect all religions are trying to bring PERSPECTIVE to a discussion which is incapable of having any. We're not "pro-Muslim", we're "anti-Christianity being foisted on a country which supposedly respects all religions", and the concept that Christians are so lilly white and Muslims are "evil". We're against children being FORCED to either pray with or sit through Christian prayers, and find public spectacles of people's religions inappropriate.
This is typical of people on the left, freak out because someone is praying, oh no what will we do?!!!! I get soooooooooo tired of this kind of whinging.
Nobody here (far as I know) is against prayer. But if we ARE a country which respects all religions, then prayer should be a private matter, practiced with those of the same faith, not put on display where people of OTHER faiths (or none) are forced to see it. Those of us speaking up are doing so about the fact that Tebow's public prayer is self-agrandizing and, as you said, "tacky", not to mention the fact that it seems to attribute whatever he did as God actually making it possible for him to do.
On the subject of bells, etc., in Afghanistan I thought the call to prayer was beautiful to hear, it's actually quite musical and akin in some ways to Jewish cantors. I also spent time in Europe, and thought their bells were really beautiful to hear. On the other hand, we have two churches here in San Rafael which sound the hours and the Sunday call to prayer; in both cases, they are RECORDED sounds of bells, not real bells, and they disgust me.Quote:
is a very rude thing to do. NOBODY, left or right, "freaks out" because someone is praying--cite one example, please. We stand up for the right NOT to have one religion foisted upon us, and point out why public displays such as Tebows are inappropriate and, in some cases, worthy of satire. Has nothing to do with hate, fear, or anything like what you and Rap are complaining about. That's where all this goes wrong; it's not about absolutism on both sides, it's about absolutism on one side and the dislike of absolutism on the other. As I said, we're not pro-Islamist or believe that Muslims are any better than Christians, or anyone else. It's an attempt to illustrate that ALL religions have inspired violence at one time or another, Christianity notwithstanding, which is true. To keep count, or argue "how many" for ANY side is absurd, and that's what we try to point out, which of course gives Rap the excuse to say we "coddle" Muslims and whatever other terms he enjoys hurling at anyone who ever tries to bring perspective to any discussion.
This is typical of people on the left, freak out because someone is praying, oh no what will we do?!!!! I get soooooooooo tired of this kind of whinging.
I have nothing against Tebow, from all I read here he sounds like a good guy. I don't even have anything against his religious displays, I just find it silly a
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About bells and calls to prayer, they can both be pretty to listen to in their own way, very different sounds but they both sound interesting. But either would get old fast if I had to hear it all the time. Have any cities in the US created rules for how many times a day loud noises like that can happen?
I hate recorded bells, at my university we had a fake bell that tolled on the hour out behind the main buildings, it was tacky.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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I went to youtube to hear what a call to prayer (adhan, azzan) sounds like. They are amazingly individual. BUT, I gotta say... being turned into an art form makes it very very veeeeerrrryyy long, as each muzzein seems to by vying for some invisible prize as to who can hold a note the longest! What might otherwise take one minute stretches out to five!
This reminds me of one of our parish priests, who thought he was an opera singer (in the days of the Latin mass, which I still find beautiful BTW). His masses were at least 15 minutes longer than anyone else's. I used to think ... hey, I'm not here to listen to Tosca, I want to get out of here and go play!
Anyway, here are some beautiful adhans
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Signe, I love Latin chant. But yeah, when you're little it isn't as exciting when it interferes with playtime.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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I used to sing choir in Latin. Et cum spiritu tuo I can still sing Sanctus by heart.
So, just to balance things out, campanile bells and church bells. In the second one, the bells don't all start ringing until halfway through.
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Oh well, I adore traditional church music - not your happy clappy pentecostal stuff which makes me want to injure kittens, but gregorian chants etc.
Is this the best piece of music? One of the best
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Hey, my brother went to Kings. Did you go there when you lived in England?
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Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
This is exactly what's wrong with the world, and you can quote me, this absolutism, this one side versus the other. Crazy Islamists and Crazy Christians are both bad. Why even have this discussion? We have real problems that we need to work on.
Uber religionism CAN be extremely bad, but that's not the issue. Not today, not in our world.
Pity you can't see things as they are, and instead simply want to play the 'even-steven' game, and paint everybody equally good, or bad, and if we'd all just hold hands ( and ignore the facts ) , then everything would be all shiny and bright!
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Not when I lived there, when I was less into choral music and more into partying and clubbing. I may have gone when I was young with my parents. I remember lots of cathedrals and chapels....too many cathedrals, frankly.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's not an issue I which should be obfuscated and diluted with nonsensical crap like Blackwater or Vietnam. The issue of Islamic radicalism is very real, and shouldn't be glossed over by lumping it in with other, irrelevant issues.
The point you keep missing is that what you claim is a "very real" issue was claimed about Vietnam back in its day, too. Remember? If Vietnam fell, the rest of the world would fall, and we'd all be commies next year!
Islamic radicalism is exactly as much a threat to me today as the Viet Cong are. That you can't see that - that you can continually, time after time after time, be wound up by the "FEAR ME!" meme - really tells us quite a bit about you.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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Also "They're evil. 'Cause when WE kill people we really don't mean it!"
*snicker*
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Uber religionism CAN be extremely bad, but that's not the issue. Not today, not in our world.
Pity you can't see things as they are, and instead simply want to play the 'even-steven' game, and paint everybody equally good, or bad, and if we'd all just hold hands ( and ignore the facts ) , then everything would be all shiny and bright!
You want to paint people and hold hands? S'what?
Help me here - did our combined 18 years and $4,400,000,000,000.00 dollars spent in Iraq and Afghanistan... do you think:
A. It Helped or Hurt recruiting for Islamic Extremists?
B. Helped us build a stronger country at home?
C. Helped our image globally? (I know - sucks having to share an increasingly smaller planet with others - maybe if we just ignore everyone else they'll go away?).
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I'm not all that concerned about our global image. It was falsely smeared in the 80's, when Reagan was trying to defeat Soviet Communism, and we still won. Iraq then went in an invaded Kuwait, and what did we and the West do ? Go liberate Kuwait. Muslims were being genocided in Bosnia, and did we take the side of Christians ? Nope. Was there oil to be had ? Nope, and yet we STILL went in, and we're STILL painted as the " bad guys ". And all this was before 9/11, which, contrary to what you may want to believe, was NOT 'brought upon ourselves'.
That right there is the biggest problem, the willingness of so many to want to blame the victim here, when the constant in nearly ALL the violence in the world is radical Islam.
Hell, even as we were aiding the Mujaheddin in the 80's, fighting the Soviet Red army, giving them aid and ammo, what did the soldiers of Allah say to us ?
Was it thank you ? Hell no, it was " You're next! " . Many just laughed, and shook their heads in disbelief. But ya know what ? They MEANT it.
Sadly, it may take another 9/11 for some folks to wake the hell up, but I doubt it. They'll naively and dumbly blame Bush, as if this all started with him , and that dastardly stolen election of 2000!
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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We went into Bosnia and Herzegovina because we had interests in establishing military bases there. They were socialist/communist before our intervention, and also right next to the old East Europe Soviet Block which we still wanted to keep our eyes on even though the soviets had fallen.
No resources like oil to speak of, no, but very much a Neo-Con military project anti-communism coup. We don't really care so much about the people in a country, so long as an ideology we approve of wins.
Peacekeeping just doesn't pay the bills. We go in somewhere, it's not out of the goodness of our hearts, its because there's an advantage.
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Was it thank you ? Hell no, it was " You're next! " . Many just laughed, and shook their heads in disbelief. But ya know what ? They MEANT it.
And why wouldn't they? They knew as much as we did we were only using them to get at the soviets and secure an oil pipeline, which failed, utterly. Considering the absolute debacle we made of the national boundaries and the leadership we put in charge in the fifty years prior, they had every reason to dislike us. Of course, they carry some blame themselves for being unable to construct any kind of national identity when they're mixed in with other religious sects, but we did put them in that situation in the first place due to sheer ignorance of the tribal lines.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
We went into Bosnia and Herzegovina because we had interests in establishing military bases there.
I was unaware that Clinton was such a war monger, willing to expand the reach of the US military, at the objections of the GOP. ( who traditionally get accused of being in the pocket of the military industrial complex ) Military bases may have been the natural consequence of that military action, but the sole purpose ?
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Peacekeeping just doesn't pay the bills. We go in somewhere, it's not out of the goodness of our hearts, its because there's an advantage.
I'm not totally against that idea myself. It only makes sense, that if we're going to spend blood and resources on a mission of mercy, it's going to have to be compensated.
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Was it thank you ? Hell no, it was " You're next! " . Many just laughed, and shook their heads in disbelief. But ya know what ? They MEANT it.
And why wouldn't they? They knew as much as we did we were only using them to get at the soviets and secure an oil pipeline, which failed, utterly. Considering the absolute debacle we made of the national boundaries and the leadership we put in charge in the fifty years prior, they had every reason to dislike us. Of course, they carry some blame themselves for being unable to construct any kind of national identity when they're mixed in with other religious sects, but we did put them in that situation in the first place due to sheer ignorance of the tribal lines.
Again, regardless of our objectives, that's how you treat those who help you out ? Nonsense. This was far less about any pipeline, for the Mujaheddin, and more about spreading Islam. The pipeline may have been a positive consequence, but so what ? There's hardly a spot on the planet that has ZERO strategic / economic value.
I think you're confusing Afghanistan w/ Iraq , and boundaries . And what of the British? Just as with Israel, it was they, not US who buggered out and arbitrarily set up boundaries, and some how WE get the blame ? Germany and Japan seemed to fare pretty well after WW2, and we were FAR more involved w/ them than we were for Afghanistan / Iraq or Israel.
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm not all that concerned about our global image.
How Barry White of you.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Peacekeeping just doesn't pay the bills. We go in somewhere, it's not out of the goodness of our hearts, its because there's an advantage.
I saw Generation Kill, read the book - fascinating first hand account. I then read the bio by one of the west pointers that was involved. It struck me that from his perspective the notion of old school Honor and Duty, and that Dime store cliche of "A man needs War" to test himself fully, was very much alive in his accounts.
Conclusion: There's no way a professional military will simply sit and drill - as much as we'd see that as a sign of an advanced civilization, they will do everything they can to make sure that does not happen. They have been spectacularly successful in this.
I think they need only the barest of reasons, or Ideals, to hang their Missions on.
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Quote:Who's the "victim" here, rappy? The USA, with bases all over the Middle East, responsible for killing hundreds of thousand of people and deposing numerous governments? Or the people of the Middle East? Don't ever forget that WE are in THEIR country, not the other way around. You have a strange way of thinking yourself somehow victimized.
And all this was before 9/11, which, contrary to what you may want to believe, was NOT 'brought upon ourselves'. That right there is the biggest problem, the willingness of so many to want to blame the victim here
Quote:You dumb fuck. If it took 9-11 to wake YOU up, then you really weren't paying attention, were you??? If you got your head out of your ass once in a while and took it our for fresh air, you'd realize that... YES, we DID engineer a lot of of own problems. We supported the mujahideen. WHY??? We support the monarchy of Saudi Arabia, which uses part of its tremendous oil wealth to export its radical wahabis and fund madrases all over the ME and Africa.
Sadly, it may take another 9/11 for some folks to wake the hell up
Let me re-post a previous post
-------------------
It's quite obvious that you're NOT afraid of "terrorism". You're really not. Stop saying so, and stop bringing it up. Stop re-running the image of a man holding up a bloody head. That isn't what bothers you. What REALLY bothers you is that the man has a kefiya on his head, not a helmet. If he had a helmet on his head, you'd be thinking GO TEAM! You're all for terrorists, as long as you think they're on your side. Jack Bauer, anyone? So don't tell us that you're afraid of "terrorism", please don't even bring that up again. This isn't a moral question for you about the means to an end, it's (in your mind) a question of survival. You're in a panic about radical Islam, so be specific.
What is it, specifically, that bothers you? Do you see the world being taken over by Islam? Do you fear that the message of a militant religion is stronger than the message of a capitalist economy?
Maybe it would help you to know what is driving this militancy, how the Muslim message stacks up against the West's, and possibly what to do about it. Because IMHO, there are three things driving radical Islam: unemployment, nationalism, and unity of purpose.
Most of the Middle East has a serious unemployment problem. Believe it or not, the more extreme Islamic groups actually act as aid societies in Egypt, Pakistan etc. bringing bread, water, security, and schools to poor neighborhoods. Sure, the schools are madrasses (funded by Saudi Arabia) but at least the kids are off the street doing something purposeful. And national governments find Islam a useful distraction to avoid more pointed questions about corruption.
Then, there is nationalism. It burns if your nation is invaded and occupied. Young men think of vengeance. Fertile ground for recruitment.
Finally, there is unity of purpose. The message of Islam is simple and direct, and everyone knows their place in the faith- young men particularly, as they are highly rewarded for being warriors for the cause. What is the message of the West? What is YOUR message, specifically: Every man for himself and god against all? That message does not satisfy the natural human longing to be part of something bigger, or the desire for fairness.
Let me close with two curious facts: We invaded and destroyed the ONLY two governments that were adamantly secular (Do you know which ones those were?) and we support two tyrannies which actively export radical Islam. (Do you know which ones those are?) AND YOU SUPPORTED ALL OF THE ABOVE. So what is our government's agenda, anyway?? It seems at cross-purposes to yours, and you seem to be unaware of that.
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Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm not all that concerned about our global image.
How Barry White of you.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
???
He did make this look good!
And Sig... blah blah blah.
Hope they have burkas in your size. ( does color really matter ? )
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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I was unaware that Clinton was such a war monger, willing to expand the reach of the US military, at the objections of the GOP. ( who traditionally get accused of being in the pocket of the military industrial complex ) Military bases may have been the natural consequence of that military action, but the sole purpose ?
Bill Clinton was very much a war monger. Seem to recall hearing mention of him bombing some medicine factories out in the Fertile Crescent, and also ignoring the threat of terrorism. Pretty much the same as Dubya's foreign policy until 9-11, and no coincidence. Don't know if you've noticed, but Slick Willy and Dubya's pappy are pretty close friends.
Both Neo-Libs and Neo-Cons are two sides of the same coin. Saying it's just the GOP that likes their DOD spending is pretty funny. Wouldn't have thought you'd be one to incriminate your own side over the demorats, though.
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Military bases may have been the natural consequence of that military action, but the sole purpose ?
Well, we are an empire. Can't exactly monitor or control territory or look out for our interests in foreign countries without bases. Our Embassies and Ambassadors generally don't go armed.
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that's how you treat those who help you out ?
We were helping them? I thought the high death toll and the throwing them against the soviets was a fairly obvious indication otherwise.
It's like giving a suicidal man a gun with one bullet. Not sure under what definition of "help" that qualifies as.
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I think you're confusing Afghanistan w/ Iraq , and boundaries .
Oh, that whole area has been a clusterfuck of sectarian violence, territory disputes, back and forth coups, and hated leadership since WWI. Afghanistan, like Arabia, was also an English colony, was also subject to British Divide and Rule policy, until for some reason around 1918 and 1919, they decided to toss all those tribes together and let them fight it out for themselves.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:Quote:
that's how you treat those who help you out ?
We were helping them? I thought the high death toll and the throwing them against the soviets was a fairly obvious indication otherwise.
Umm... we threw them at the Soviets ? Who invaded whom, again?
Our choices were a) Help them, like we did , or b ) do absolutely nothing, and allow the Soviets to plow them into the ground, and establish yet 1 more satellite nation , that much closer to the oil fields and warm water ports of the Gulf. , or c ) direct military conflict w/ the Soviet Union, and starting WW3.
Seems to me you wanted b or c, but not a ?
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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I would have left them alone. Afghanistan??? They could have had it! And Pakistan too, for that matter! AND Ethiopia! If they want to take charge of a bunch of impoverished benighted nations and make something of them... I say "Go for it".
Quote:Apparently this is the only thing your head contains... blah blah blah. Time to stop listening to you!
And Sig... blah blah blah.
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Quote:
Umm... we threw them at the Soviets ? Who invaded whom, again?
Our choices were a) Help them, like we did , or b ) do absolutely nothing, and allow the Soviets to plow them into the ground, and establish yet 1 more satellite nation , that much closer to the oil fields and warm water ports of the Gulf. , or c ) direct military conflict w/ the Soviet Union, and starting WW3.
Seems to me you wanted b or c, but not a ?
The conversation isn't about what our choices were, the conversation is about why they hate us.
Let's see, instead of sending our own soldiers in because of Cold War fears, we trained and armed a bunch of mujahideen and fought a proxy war through them. Russia might have invaded first, but what exactly do you call our response if not throwing the mujahideen at the problem? And when they died, do you think we really cared? We considered them expendable cannon fodder. They hated us for it. Seems pretty understandable.
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And there you have it. Let them have Afghanistan...why ? Because you're a fan of Soviet Russia, and wanted to see that oppression expand even further ?
WOW.
Thankfully, others w/ more foresight than you were in positions of power and influence back then.
And Ethiopia ? Huh?
" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
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Quote:Again, head out of ass, rappy. The Soviet-affiliated government was in Afghanistan long enough to graduate women doctors. Imagine, women doctors in Afghanistan. Then the Taliban took over, and 52% percent of the population, a population who had gotten used to SOME freedom, was relegated to a status less than donkeys, and the entire nation turned into a clusterfuck of warring tribes and oppressive banditry. Oh, yeah... some freedom from oppression they got there! And to top it all off, it turned into a nursery for al Qaida.
and wanted to see that oppression expand even further ?
Now, if you would use your head for something other than ass-filling, you might ask yourself... Since our intervention in Afghanistan was such a resounding failure, and ultimately created more problems for us than it solved, what would have been the better choice? Where do our REAL interests lie? Development and education around the world? Or military tyrannies and failed states?
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