Real World Event Discussions

7 in 10 U.S. Protestant pastors reject evolution

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 2, 2024 16:34
VIEWED: 9190
PAGE 3 of 9

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:58 PM

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Remember the thread on whether or not universal and innate morality exists?

What did most of us use to justify and explain our positions on existence or non-existence of such morality?

Evolution.

Humans are psychotic due to various circumstances, so somehow this indicates some deep quasi-mystical purpose and meaning in the world?

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:58 PM

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
If you're saying that we all hold irrational beliefs even in spite of such introspection,....
No, not irrational beliefs. We all have values we believe in, despite evidence to the contrary. People marry, despite statistical evidence that they are likely to divorce later. People vote, despite evidence that politicians don't carry out their promises. It is not irrationality. It is hope.

Hey CTS,

This is a tough disagreement to have. You, who are a self-professed believer have a lot of ancilarly reasons for that belief that have proven to be good enough for you, but are all too likely not nearly good enough for any number of self-professed non-believers you might unwittingly encounter.

F'rinstance, we do not all get married. Nor do we all vote. And fer cryin' out loud, we don't all vote as a matter of faith. (Sorry, that's a pet peeve--I think this country would be a lot better off if y'all stopped voting your beliefs and started voting for the best person for the job. I voted for Obama because he was the best applicant for the job that a majority of my fellow Americans and I could agree on and I stand by my decision as such. I would dearly love if people would take the religion out of the Presidency--out of politics in general.)

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Evolution has become a philosophy of the intentions of the Universe, a blueprint for what is natural and unnatural, a map for where humankind ought to be headed. It is, if you will, the closest thing to a "god" that atheists have.

Even you can't bring yourself to say that evolution IS a god to the atheists (although, you act as if you did a little farther down post--cheater, cheater). You say it is "the closest thing," but the closest thing to a god is still not in any way a god, is it? The leap from finite to infinite is pretty big. And thence to omnipotent? Oh boy. Sure, I've heard some atheistic thinkers and evolution fans get all poetical about it in this way, but I've heard as many if not more denounce such as dangerous hogwash.

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There are plenty of intelligent, articulate, and highly educated fundies. At heart, it is not a matter of choosing a literal interpretation of the Bible over scientific theory.

Now you've lost me. I never said there weren't any "intelligent, articulate, and highly educated fundies." You are tilting at windmills here.

In my experience with fundies it is precisely rejecting science in favor of a literal interpretation of the Bible. Of course it is. How could it not be? Fundie Christians in this country eternally complain about having secular humanistic values thrust upon 'em at ever turn, and what do they do in that case? Reject 'em.

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It is a matter of rejecting Evolution, the "god."

This sounds like CTS. You are not, my friend, the typical fundie.

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That is what I meant by we all are believers. We all believe in some value, some hope, some unifying explanation that guides our morals and purpose. For them, it is the God of Abraham. For others, it is Evolution.

Um. No. I can't agree to that. Include me out. You, as a believer are seeing the world through believer-colored glasses. I promise you, god has a ton more meaning in your day-to-day than evolution has to any atheist I've ever met. As beliefs, the two simply cannot compete. To the atheists I know, evolution is just a topic of conversation, an area of study, but to a believer, god is, well, the alpha and omega.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

RIONAEIRE

Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:51 AM

Signe, untwist your panties and have a cold drink. All those people were taught evolution in school but decided to believe in something different, they were given access to various ideas and made their choice, settle down.

I believe in micro evolution, its obvious, adapt or die, the strong survive, natural selection, if a trait is valuable it will eventually become predominant and change happens thusly. I just can't go for the macro thing, no matter how much we were taught it in school. Yup I'm a creationist, what ya goin to do about it?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

AURAPTOR

Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:48 AM

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Originally posted by RionaEire:

Yup I'm a creationist, what ya goin to do about it?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Heh heh... that made me smile. Even if I take a contrary view, I do like the spunky attitude.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, January 12, 2012 3:19 AM

I'm picturing a bar, Riona is drinking soda, AURaptor sidles up to a chair and it's all

/flirt
/shameless flirt
/flirting flirting flirting

(just teasing, it's kinda cute)

AURAPTOR

Thursday, January 12, 2012 3:53 AM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm picturing a bar, Riona is drinking soda, AURaptor sidles up to a chair and it's all

/flirt
/shameless flirt
/flirting flirting flirting

(just teasing, it's kinda cute)

I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about.

RIONAEIRE

Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:08 AM

Oh oh oh! Can I have a daquery instead? My body doesn't like fizz, neither does my little brother's, we're in the anti fizz fan club. :)

BTW the title of this thread made me laugh out loud, what do you expect from that population?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, January 12, 2012 7:17 AM

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
You, as a believer are seeing the world through believer-colored glasses. I promise you, god has a ton more meaning in your day-to-day than evolution has to any atheist I've ever met. As beliefs, the two simply cannot compete. To the atheists I know, evolution is just a topic of conversation, an area of study, but to a believer, god is, well, the alpha and omega.

Correct. Also again, evolution is not a belief but a scientific theory. Nobody worships evolution, they see it as an explanation of the existence of life on this planet based upon evidence. If this theory is one day proved incorrect and that there is another theory of existence, then that would surplant evolutionary theory. Personally I think the idea that we all exist in a giant computer game and that our creator is some spotty immature alien is certainly a possibility, but aint got no evidence for that one either.

Creationism, a la Genesis, God created the world in 7 days, then Adam, then Eve....most religiously inclined people I know see this as an explanation for existence at a time when that was about all people could understand, just like creation myths from other cultures ie the stars are camp fires, the milky way being spurted out of Gaius nipple, or a stone monkey jumping out of an egg.

With better scientific understanding of our world and the universe it exists in, we know certain facts. We know that the world is not 4000 years old, that it is not flat, that it revolves around the sun and not the other way around. We know that dinosaurs existed, and many, many lifeforms that have since died out. We know that there were proto humans, and other humanoids that existed, even co existed with homo sapiens. These are all facts. You cannot teach something else without it being contrary to fact.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:46 PM

/Takes a seat and buys bytemite a drink
What are you having?
I'm trying to cut back on fizzies myself
/orders self a red pinot noir
I'm just here to watch the fireworks.

Riona, that was pretty awesome.

Hk, i think you killed sky, time to grovel.

SIGNYM

Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:11 PM

I never expected so many responses. I would have thought this would all be rather academic by now. I have one general comment and some specific replies.

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Generally, my point wasn't about whether or not you think evolution is good theory, but how you go about accepting ANY idea: Do you evaluate it on the basis of evidence, or do you "believe"? Of all of the responses here, HK seems to be the only one to grok what I was driving at. I guess I wasn't clear.

Belief by definition requires the acceptance of ideas which run counter to available evidence, because if you can point to proof, do you really need belief? I believe in Allah makes sense as a statement, but I believe in gravity doesn't. Belief and evidentiary thinking are philosophically exclusive. That scientists "believe in god" only shows tolerance for contradictory thought, not any inherent logical consistency between the approaches. So... belief OR evaluation using evidence?

For years, the earth was thought to be essentially flat, disease was thought to be caused by bad air, and the universe consisted of four elements. These ideas were based on the evidence of the time. But they have been superseded by new questions and new evidence. And our current thinking will in turn be superseded by later thinking based on even more comprehensive evidence.

But not for believers, since they do not share in the process of questioning and progress, but are either stuck with a several-thousand-year-old-book, or simply accept the latest statements of... whoever it is they follow on radio or TV, whose ideas follow random paths unbounded by evidence.

Now, even the best scientists are limited by the assumptions and paradigms and even orthodoxy of the day. Therefore, I think that the highest service one can perform for humanity is to ASK IMPORTANT QUESTIONS... questions which reveal assumptions SO deeply held that they are invisible to nearly everyone. Since these deepest-seated assumptions are the ones that color every aspect of our thought, they are the hardest to see. But those who ask these fundamental questions (Does the sun revolve around the earth, or is it the other way around?) are the ones who contribute the most to our understanding of the universe.

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CTS-

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Evolution has become a philosophy of the intentions of the Universe, a blueprint for what is natural and unnatural, a map for where humankind ought to be headed.

I'm puzzled by your reaction which seems to imply that science is setting some sort of moral agenda, and that evolution is "like a god" to scientists. What, exactly, do you think evolution is saying to scientists? What values do you feel are being propounded? Or do you feel that science is a system antithetical to values?

RAPPY

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I was unaware that the role of the President was to promote current and cutting edge views on science. ... The odds that Newt's view, for example, that both magical bible creation and the mechanics of evolution can both be true, will have any meaningful effect on how he runs the country, is negligible.

Actually, it is. I prefer a President who has both feet on the ground and both eyes on reality. A President who is not well-grounded is likely to engage in futile wars on flimsy evidence of threat and even flimsier evidence for success. And, since when is evolution "cutting edge?" When were you born? 1880?

RIONA

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Signe, untwist your panties and have a cold drink.

Wow, did YOUR panties bunch up, or what???

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All those people were taught evolution in school but decided to believe in something different, they were given access to various ideas and made their choice, settle down....Yup I'm a creationist, what ya goin to do about it?

Then you have nothing to say to me, nor I to you. We are here to talk, yes??? But on what basis does one discuss a "belief"? Certainly not on the basis of evidence. So .. what YOU gonna say about it? Not