Did Bush lie? It doesn't matter any more.
POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 18:35
VIEWED: 11007
PAGE 6 of 11
Geezer- please look up "positive feedback".
I've already proposed something better: Since the current situation is entirely created by law, change the laws that define corporations and govern trade. I have a myriad suggestions, ranging from limited to sweeping, and each one would require a discussion. Here are a few examples:
Because corporations (as synthetic persons) are treated favorably under the law, make the laws that govern corporations the same as laws that govern people. For example, equalize the laws regarding tax, theft, liability and criminality. Institute the equivalent of corporate jail time (the Board and exective officers get replaced en masse) and (if you believe in the death penalty) the corporate death penalty (forced liquidation).
Place the same liabilities on corporations that are on people and expect the same responsible "behavior". Require corporations (and all business) to protect employee consitutional rights, such as the right of privacy and the right of free speech. (Most people have the mis-impression that the consitutional ammendments guarantee their rights vis a vis business. They do not.)
Eliminate the option of "publicly traded" businesses. Stock ownership creates a special distortion in business management that is tied to the quarterly report and stock price, leading to very short-term thinkingand speculation. (Business can raise capital through bonds, loans, partnerships etc.)
Engineer trade agreements to recognize and reward responsible government. Place progressive tariffs on nations that don't (1) have universal, UN-recognised elections (2) allow the formation of national and international trade unions (3) have environmental protection laws that allow sustainable development.
Eliminate the notion of "intellectual property", which stilfes rather than enhances technological development.
Eliminate the corporate business form completely. Replace it with cooperative business forms.
Place banking and currecny exchange under national and international regulation, and remove it from speculation.
I have lots more ideas, some have more merit than others. The limit isn't "What we can do instead" but the will to engage in thinking and acting along these lines.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Because corporations (as synthetic persons) are treated favorably under the law, make the laws that govern corporations the same as laws that govern people. For example, equalize the laws regarding tax, theft, liability and criminality. Institute the equivalent of corporate jail time (the Board and exective officers get replaced en masse) and (if you believe in the death penalty) the corporate death penalty (forced liquidation).
Equalizing the tax rates would probably either raise prices or force mass failures or both, and would probably impact smaller businesses worse than larger. Also remember that employers already have the tax burden of having to match their employee's FICA and FUTA tax, as well as collect and forward their withholding to IRS, and can be fined or jailed for failure to do so.
I take it that the liability you mention is corporate liability for breaking laws, not product liability, and I have no problem with tougher laws relating to criminality and theft.
Firing the board just cuts them loose with their money, and liquidating the business just puts folk out of work. Making the directors criminally liable for jail time or fines (as IRS does now for failure to pay FICA, FUTA, WH) works better, IMO.
Quote:
Require corporations (and all business) to protect employee consitutional rights, such as the right of privacy and the right of free speech.
A business has the right (though not Constitutional) to expect that it's employees will be performing work when they are at work. Monitoring email or phone traffic seem to me valid ways to verify this. I'd think that a business should be required to notify it's employees if it is going to do this, and set some policy about appropriate use of systems.
Quote:
Eliminate the option of "publicly traded" businesses. Stock ownership creates a special distortion in business management that is tied to the quarterly report and stock price, leading to very short-term thinking and speculation. (Business can raise capital through bonds, loans, partnerships etc.)
Bonds are usually issued by municipal or governmental entities which can guarantee a return. A bond without such a guarantee is just stock by another name. Banks aren't going to loan money on risky ventures, thus stifling development of new ideas. I'm not sure there is enough money in banks to provide all the capital needed in any case. Engineering a transition away from the current system while protecting the money of the people who already own stock would be interesting as well.
Quote:
Engineer trade agreements to recognize and reward responsible government. Place progressive tariffs on nations that don't (1) have universal, UN-recognised elections (2) allow the formation of national and international trade unions (3) have environmental protection laws that allow sustainable development.
I would agree with this in principle, but I see difficulties in implementing it. Note the divisiveness in the UN over such obvious right and wrong (to me, anyway) situations as in Sudan. I also see fun coming up with a definition of "sustainable development" that everyone would agree with.
Quote:
Eliminate the notion of "intellectual property", which stifles rather than enhances technological development.
Eliminate copyright and patents? Then what's a person's motivation to invent, or a business' motivation to provide that person with the resources to invent? Recognition of a great idea or advance in technology is a wonderful thing, but it doesn't pay the bills for the investment it took to develop that idea or advance.
Quote:
Eliminate the corporate business form completely. Replace it with cooperative business forms.
Quoting from the National Cooperative Business Association site http://www.ncba.coop/abcoop_ab_values.cfm (emphasis mine):
"A cooperative is an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social and cultural needs and aspiration
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Geezer,
The last time I tried to prove my claims TO YOU about the 'Bush and admin lied about WMD' topic, you didn't have enough time to read it, were not interested, couldn't be bothered, etc etc. A million reasons, and none.
In another discussion with a poster who demanded 'proof' and then dismissed it, he NEVER supported any of HIS claims with facts.
As you have not supported any of yours. Since you already blew me off once when I attempted to demonstrate the facts, how about you prove your claims? I'll be happy to demand, criticize, dismiss and ignore.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer,
As you have not supported any of yours. Since you already blew me off once when I attempted to demonstrate the facts, how about you prove your claims? I'll be happy to demand, criticize, dismiss and ignore.
My claim is that capitalist democracies currently provide a higher standard of living for more of their population than any other system. My claim is supported by the UN Human Development Index http://hdr.undp.org/ as noted above, which basically shows that the best places to live are democratic republics with a capitalist, or at least free-market, economy. I do not claim that they are perfect, or that they cannot be improved, just that there is currently nothing that works better.
Where I work I can hear my fellow employees speaking Spanish, and Mandarin, and Bantu, and Arabic, and other languages I have no clue about. They are employees and contractors in a IT shop and are making a good living. They came here because they realize this is the place to get ahead, the place where there is opportunity.
Would I like to see the folks who haven't made it do better? Of course. Could we do more? No doubt.For example, I think the recent change in overtime rules is pretty bogus. But I'd rather improve on the basis we have than tear down the whole thing and try to start from scratch.
SignyM was kind enough to share a few ideas, some of which I agreed with, some I didn't, and some that I wouldn't mind seeing but don't think can realistically be implemented. At least in this way we have some common ground.
And that's the goal here, to get some common ground. You and I may never agree about whether Bush lied, or about how important it may be if he did or didn't. We probably don't agree about a lot of stuff. We're individuals, not from the same mold. But there's probably stuff we do agree about. Why not work on that for a while?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Oh, and just to show that I'm not 100% happy with things, lets get rid of all this business money in politics. Whether it's Big Oil or George Soros, anyone putting tens of millions of dollars into 527s and party warchests is going to expect a lot in return. I'd drastically limit the amount of money, hard and soft, that could be spent, and probably set a time window for campaigning.
And while I'm at it, what's with this Marriage Amendment nonesense? That's just crazy talk.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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You can't prove it.
It doesn't matter.
I don't have time.
--------------------------
Rue (with apologies to Geezer) but the above are/ were so easily disproved that they can only be seen as avoidance. Geezer can't approach the concept "Bush lied about WMD" with equanimity; it generates enough fear to make the topic off-limits.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You can't prove it.
It doesn't matter.
I don't have time.
--------------------------
Rue (with apologies to Geezer) but the above are/ were so easily disproved that they can only be seen as avoidance. Geezer can't approach the concept "Bush lied about WMD" with equanimity; it generates enough fear to make the topic off-limits.
Guys, I expect politicians to lie, and if not lie then spin facts to their needs. Knowing that Bush "lied" instead of "spun" wouldn't be a revelation to me. That's why it doesn't matter as much to me as, say, reproductive rights(for), the "marriage amendment"(against), changes in overtime laws(against the latest one), campaign reform(for), tax reform(for, but it's tricky), gun rights(for...cold dead hands, etc.), ethnic cleansing(I'm so pissed about the waffling on Sudan. I want UN peacekeepers in there last year), etc. A politician lying is just "...so what else is new?" to me.
"Bush Lied" isn't the only issue here, for me and for a lot of other folk. The one-note thing just wears us out. Above are seven other things I'd rather discuss, plus the "Capitalist Democracies; Threat or Menace?" one we already have going.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Geezer,
My approach is this: either facts lead to opinions, or they are mere rhetorical decorations on pre-formed opinions. To be fact-based, one has to be willing to look at ALL facts.
I am willing to have a fact-based discussion, but 1) having been burned once, by you, on this very effort, I'm reluctant to spend a lot of time on it and 2) so far my facts encompass yours.
Here are some examples, at length:
Quote:We could go around and around about this, so I’ll lay out some proposals, and ahead of time attempt to meet some objections you may raise.
Even if they're just subsistence farming, they have to use some of the fruits of their efforts to buy new implements to farm with.
Capitalism is a limited system in a very recent time-frame of human existence.
One could define capitalism so loosely that even the ancient Aztecs could be considered capitalists, but that obliterates meaningful and important distinctions. For capitalism to exist as we understand it, there has to be a formal monetary economy and ownership rules, and a government that regulates and enforces them. Another (inexplicit) aspect of capitalism is that one person (or corporation) owns the ‘means of production’ but does NOT provide the labor. The labor comes from those who don’t own the means of production and who depend on selling their labor for survival (the ‘wage slaves’). Or as the Felicia Rishad said on the Cosby show, "We work for our money, rich people have their money work for them."
Even today there are economies that don’t use (or understand) money, though they do barter. I propose they are not capitalist. Additionally, those societies where one "owns" the digging stick, bow and arrow, net, canoe etc, but also provides the labor are not capitalist. To have put in effort to get extra fish, and then to have used those extra fish to trade for cloth doesn’t make the means of survival capitalist. The person is merely exchanging some of the benefits of their labor (which they wholly own) for another thing they think will also benefit them. And finally, currently a minimum of 1 billion people do not live under systems that can be considered capitalist.
Historically there have been societies (not every society, but some) where a ruling elite claims the right to both resources and labor. The Egyptians, Aztecs, Chinese Empires, Romans, and even the recent European feudal system (serfs were specifically part of the land) did that. However, these systems were religious in authority, not economic. As people did not trade their labor for survival, no bargain was struck.
One can only speculate about very early human groups, and further back to the proto-humans. But I think you will agree that if chimpanzees, orangutans and gorillas survive without capitalism, then in the vast interlude of millions of years between common ancestors and now, capitalism probably did not contribute to animal survival.
Having established, I believe, that people survived nearly all of their existence WITHOUT capitalism, and that it is a recent human construct, let's examine the question this comment opens:
Quote:You propose people need capitalism. My contention is capitalism needs people, not the other way around.
Maybe if the world population was half a billion or less. The current population requires massive investments in infrastructure to survive at all. Without capitalism, where does this come from?
Let's casually look at 'capital' investment and infrastructure. (A definition of capital will follow later.) And let's also casually look at Africa, since it's come up already. Angola used to be self-sufficient for food - they met the 'survival' standard you propose. As happens in many African countries, small remote villages were stable. In the war (which the US fomented BTW specifically to ruin the economy and drive out the socialist government) men either joined the forces, fled or were killed. That left the old people, women and children in the remote villages vulnerable to attack. Most sought safety in the cities. Suddenly these s
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Did Bush lie? That's a good question, my opinion is that he was mislead. Who hasn't been mislead. Personally to have a president lie is a big deal, you loose that trust factor. You wonder about everything they say from that point forward. So would we say that Bush's big lie is the WMD. Wonder what Kerry's could be, if elected. He has to have one, he's a politician. Is he spouting lies now. Is the whole swift boat ordeal a lie, I would like to know. If it's not why doesn't he sue those men for slander, defamation of character or something. That could possibly shut them up. This shouldn't be a big deal for his race for the White House, except that he brought up his service. So he does need to defend it. I know my father's Purple Hearts are real. But he doesn't brag about his service.
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The SBVT are lying. Not only are they contradicting themsleves, they're contradicting the written record and - more importantly- they are contradicting testimony of the soldiers who were physically closest to the action. In the incident where Kerry earned the Silve Star, the third Swift Boat commander- who has kept silent about his experience all these years- came out publically two days ago saying that Kerry's version in the correct one.
But this is typical of Bush and his advisors. He smeared the records of two other Vietnam heroes- John McCain and Max Cleland- when they were running for office.
Which leads me to...
Bush's "TRUST FACTOR????"
Bush lies about everything he CAN lie about. Try matching up the titles of his programs to their actual effects: "kinder, gentler nation" "leave no child behind" "Clean Skies Initiative"
"Healthy Forests Initiative"
To give you another less well-known example of the Bush prevarication machine: A close vote on the Medicare Drug bill was expected. Some Senators vowed that they would not vote for the bill if it was over a threshold. When the Chief Actuary ran the calculations and found it would cost more than expected- and more than was politically acceptable- he was threatened with termination if he were to provide those figures to the Senate. The person who threatened the actuary was a Bush appointee. The Bill was passed, providing a bonanaza to the pharmas.
While I expect politicians to shade the truth, I have not seen this level of dishonesty over so many important issues in decades. The last time I saw so many lies was Kissinger... and for those young-uns here, that's ancient hx.
BTW- Public figures can't sue for slander. That's part of the deal when you run for office- anybody can say anything about you.
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