Vaccinations, Pt 2

POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 22, 2024 17:51
VIEWED: 18576
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MAGONSDAUGHTER

Saturday, December 17, 2011 4:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The gubmint is not standing over you with a gun, making you vaccinate. They give you a choice: vaccinate if you want to send your child to public school. Or homeschool. The choice is yours. The problem is, you want to be able to make the choice without consequence, especially if you create a risk to others. So you want to send your unvaccinated child to school freely. Well, it doesn't work that way. You're not about to get the bennies for free.

Quote:
In Australia, vaccination is not compulsory, but various incentives and reminders aim to promote it. First, payment of the maternity allowance at 18 months and the childcare benefit requires up-to-date vaccination according to the Australian Childhood Immunisation Register (ACIR),5 unless a medical practitioner has notified the ACIR of a contraindication or serologically confirmed immunity, or has discussed conscientious objection with a parent. Second, at school entry, documentation of full vaccination is required in most Australian jurisdictions, with children who do not have such documentation or serological proof of immunity to specific diseases, such as measles, able to be excluded from school attendance if suspected cases occur. Although the United States is often quoted as having laws for mandatory vaccination, the practical effect of these laws is also limited to exclusion of unvaccinated children from school during outbreaks, although preschool attendance for such children can be barred altogether.6 Italy is one of a few countries where there is compulsory vaccination, but only for diphtheria, tetanus, polio and hepatitis B. However, this has not been enforced for many years.7 To find examples of truly compulsory vaccination, it is necessary to go back to the 19th century. In England, the Vaccination Act of 1853 made smallpox vaccination compulsory for all infants in the first three months of life, on pain of fine or imprisonment. Its enactment spawned riots in several towns and an active anti-vaccination movement. In 1898, a new Vaccination Act removed these penalties and introduced the concept of "conscientious objector" into English law.

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/178_04_170203/mci10747_fm.html

Additionally, if you are a parent who chooses not to vaccinate, your children benefit from the majority of people being vaccinated, as they are less likely to encounter contagion. The herd benefit.

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, December 17, 2011 5:35 AM

Problem with this whole debate so far is that everyone involved has really damned obvious biases and there's a damned lot of close-minded hostility going on, as well as certain assumptions being made by all sides which ain't even necessarily true.

Which leads to the flamethrowers coming out, and folks getting all personal about it, and spikes any notion of rational debate before it even gets off the ground cause of rage-induced blindness and the perceived need to defend a position at all costs even when someone is pointing out damn obvious flaws in it.

Which is again, why I am hesitant to even enter these discussions, but I suppose in for a penny, in for a pound and I'll ask that you at least freakin PRETEND to keep an open mind and actually LISTEN to each other instead of filing people (human beings, remember?) into a goddamn category and then dismissing that category entire cause it's easier than discussing the matter like rational people.

Okay ?
Okay.

That being said, onto the topic - and I'll start with Magons here.

Quote:
These are not myth OR voodoo. The first two are acknowledging that there are some diseases where the cause or root is unknown. The second is the way that diagnosis is determinied. Seems sound to me. Do you have a better idea.

Imma call bullshit right up front - if it's "myth and voodoo" when ONE 'side' does it, then it's the same thing when the other 'side' does it, quid pro quo here.

Now in lieu of actually managing to determine the root cause, you work with what you got, especially if the patient doesn't have time for you to sit there and figure it the hell out, you simply do the best you can with what you have, I understand that completely - but I felt the need to point out that modern medicine still has a damn lot of guesswork in it, and to call that guesswork "myth and voodoo" when non-traditional medicine uses the SAME DAMN METHODS, is a form of ridiculous partisanship, I think.

The important thing, is to treat the patient, and while finding the root cause and addressing it is very important it is a secondary concern when you have a suffering human being in the equation - but all too much of the time due to lack of resources or desire, there's no followup to determine the root cause, which is one of the places modern medicine has FAR better capacity than non-traditional medicine, and yet all too often fails to do this - that I point this out isn't a condemnation, but rather in an effort to expose what seems to be a blind spot in conventional treatment which should not be.

Quote:
And I think personal experience contributes a lot to ones world view, even though that is stating the bleeding obvious. By and large I have pretty good experiences with the medical profession. By and large. I have had the experience of being treated like a lump of meat by an arrogant gynocologist and have seen my mother treated condescendingly upon her death bed, which was pretty um.... But largely, medical professionals from ambos to nurses to doctors and specialists have been competent and compassionate, and kept me well informed and my family and I have had good medical treatment. So that is my experience so far. You've got to remember as well that I've only paid minimal dollars for such care. A couple of private treatments, and some gap payments for scans and GP appointments etc and everything else has been free. I've heard people whinge about their treatment at our local (public) hospital, but I really never have had cause for complaint, other than some long waits in casualty but that is to be expected. They triage cases, and if you are low priority, you wait.

Yanno, I get the notion that the practice of medicine in some countries is significantly better done than it often is here - sounds like the land down under does a better job of it overall, in fact it seems a lot of places do, probably cause they don't have the incestuous collusion between insurance, big pharma, and a medical establishment gone corrupt in the name of profit - I HAVE noticed that a lot of the better

CANTTAKESKY

Saturday, December 17, 2011 5:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But yanno what CTS? You're very closed-minded....I have no interest in talking with you any further on the topic.

LOL. That's what I get for agreeing with you. I'm not jumping with joy at the thought of speaking with you either. I think it is a good call to cease speaking to each other.

Quote:
Also, please read my post previous to CTS where I describe how our daughter was permanently done in neurologically and intellectually by good old-fashioned chicken pox.

You've mentioned this 3 times now. I think they get it.

I am sorry to hear what happened to your daughter. Truly tragic. You have my sympathies.

My final comment to you, and you need not respond, because this is rhetorical. Substitute "vaccine" for "chickenpox," and you'll get the heartache *I* have heard from parents.

Have a nice life, Siggy.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, December 17, 2011 5:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hmm.. well, for the record, CTS is strawmanning me on the autism issue. Even though most cases of autism are present at birth I never said that autism is not environmental. I proposed all kinds of possibilities for the increase in autism, from the plethora of chemicals in the modern diet to lack of sunshine or eggs. After all, if you've got 50,000+ industrial chemicals to think about, plus all kinds if dietary and lifestyle changes, why stop at vaccines??? (HINT: prejudice may play a part.)

Also, the late diagnosis is not because of lazy parents but lazy medicine. Often the parents... moms particularly... are acutely aware than "something is wrong", but no matter how they bring it up to the pediatrician (assuming they even have insurance and a pediatrician to talk to) they are often advised Kids develop and different rates, just give it time

SO.

What I said was that limiting the scope of inquiry to vaccines is unrealistically restrictive. It is true that autism is a grab-bag of symptoms. Therefore, it is also likely that autism represents a constellation of causes, not just one.

AFA the cure (vaccines) being worse than the disease... has anyone looked at the complication rate of measles? Pertussis? Polio? Smallpox? Each parent has to make a choice... risk the disease, or risk the vaccine? In most cases, the disease is worse. Our daughter, who was neurocompromised at birth, got chicken pox the old-fashioned way... from other kids. Chicken pox, not the vaccine, chicken pox, sent her into a 1-hour seizure from which she NEVER recovered. Her seizures were "kindled"... that is exactly how it sounds... and from there she went into seizure after seizure, and from there into a regression which left her lost in her own house, mute, and trembling. THAT was the death of our bright but seizure-prone little girl.

There is a risk to doing nothing, as well as risk to doing something. Some parents are so frozen by the fear of treatment that their children suffer far far worse consequences. I have spoken with parents whose children were having 10-20 seizures per day, the kids constantly gorked out postictally, but mom or dad was paralyzed by the thought of medication side effects (?!?!?). The treatment of seizures is complex, multiple medications are not more effective than one, but no medication at all is usually much worse than one.

There are, alas, no absolutely reliable indicators as to which medication (or vaccine) will be effective for which child, and which child will get a trip to hell.

So when it comes to ANY treatment, you have to ask yourself: what is the risk of doing nothing? What is the risk of doing something?

For Gardasil, I have to ask: what is the consequence of doing nothing? The consequence is that child will become infected with HPV and possibly develop cervical cancer (for which there is already good screening and treatment). What is the risk of the vaccine? It seems more than the risk of the disease.

Yanno, imma just quote the whole thing, cause while coming AT it from opposite ends of the spectrum we do seem to have found a middle ground where we DO agree, proper diagnosis, and fully informed consent being at the root of it.

Now if we can just hold our prejudices at bay for a bit, we can roll with this.

I think, regarding autism-spectrum disorders, the keypoint of all of it is really simple: WE NEED MORE DATA.
We simply do not have ENOUGH to go making decisions, and the lack of effort to obtain more info is kind of appalling to me, since we're treating symptoms for the moment which is at most a delaying action doomed to fail as much as treating tuberculosis with nyquil - when we SHOULD be finding and addressing the root cause, or at the very LEAST eliminating factors that can be eliminated, in an effort to home on in what the causes are or may be.

That's not to say do nothing in the meantime, as you yourself have noted can be as dangerous as doing the wrong thing - but WHILE we do

CANTTAKESKY

Saturday, December 17, 2011 5:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
That's still not quite what I mean... Risk is something different than for absolute certain people being harmed and dying.

Is it?

If the risk is 1 in a million, and you vaccinate 30 million people, guess how many kids are getting hurt? The "risk" part is simply not knowing WHO exactly would be hurt. The hurt part is a statistical certainty.

It is Russian roulette with a large number of people. Each person is taking a risk. But the bullet is coming out sooner or later.

In public health policy, those 30 are acceptable losses for the greater good, the saving of say, 300 lives.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, December 17, 2011 5:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The gubmint is not standing over you with a gun, making you vaccinate. They give you a choice: vaccinate if you want to send your child to public school. Or homeschool. The choice is yours. The problem is, you want to be able to make the choice without consequence, especially if you create a risk to others. So you want to send your unvaccinated child to school freely. Well, it doesn't work that way. You're not about to get the bennies for free.

That's a liars choice - a magicians hand fake.
It assumes the ABILITY of the parent to homeschool, or financial ability to use a private school without that restriction.

Look no further than the case of Maryanne Godboldo for just how badly that can go wrong, or Rick Perry's attempt to mandate Gardasil.

In Maryannes case it came as a result of her reaching the limit of her ability to homeschool her child and resorting to public school for lack of choice, either educationally neglect her child, or take the risk - wasn't a lot of CHOICE involved there, and the results have been apallingly tragic.

I think we also need more education options, but that's another topic.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

CANTTAKESKY

Saturday, December 17, 2011 5:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I think, regarding autism-spectrum disorders, the keypoint of all of it is really simple: WE NEED MORE DATA.... but WHILE we do that, we really need to buckle down and start freaking diggin, right ?

You want to dig here, on this forum?

Do you want to focus on the many possible factors in autism? Or do you want to stay on the topic of vaccinations and their pros and cons?

I say we start a new thread on autism, if that is what you're looking for. Cause vaccinations? Siggy/Magon and I haven't said anything we all haven't heard before. If we talk at all on this topic, it is for the benefit of third parties like you and Byte and Anthony.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

CANTTAKESKY

Saturday, December 17, 2011 6:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
That's a liars choice - a magicians hand fake....

In Maryannes case it came as a result of her reaching the limit of her ability to homeschool her child and resorting to public school for lack of choice, either educationally neglect her child, or take the risk - wasn't a lot of CHOICE involved there, and the results have been apallingly tragic.

Yep.

I have told this story before, but will again. I communicated with a mother who was in a dilemma. She lived in WV, where there were no religious exemptions from compulsory vaxes. She had a son, who developed regressive autism after a vaccine. Assured by her pediatrician there was absolutely no link, she vaccinated her second son, who also developed autism shortly after vaccination. Now she faces the choice for her 3rd son. Her husband had left her alone with 3 sons. As a single parent, she had to work and couldn't afford to homeschool. But she couldn't bring herself to take the risk with her third son either. Her "choice" was to vaccinate or move to another state with exemptions. Not much of a "choice."

It is not a choice if only the well-to-do have such choices. Compulsory vaccination laws penalize the poor while exempting the wealthy. Not the sort of thing I expect progressives to support, but there it is.

Liberals will make an exception of what they support for vaccination, the sacred cow and iconic symbol of "collective duty," the darlingest tenet of liberalism. More darling than equity for the poor.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

CANTTAKESKY

Saturday, December 17, 2011 6:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
And I can't say I can understand WHY there would be a vaccine panel at Dragon-Con. Bizarre.

It was part of a "Skepticism" track, to balance out all the sci-fi and fantasy at the convention.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

BYTEMITE

Saturday, December 17, 2011 8:03 AM

The hell? Yeah, everyone likes a hard dose of reality in their escapism and being lectured by imagination nazis. Good thinking DC, sounds like a fun time.

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