Vaccinations, Pt 2
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 22, 2024 17:51
VIEWED: 18576
PAGE 2 of 17
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, um. I don't know that a faith in the medical establishment is necessarily an indication of not giving a crap about parents, or their children.
I think Sig cares about the kids. Maybe she's just concerned infants don't get fatal cases of whooping cough or something. Some people will use a hammer to remove a screw, other people might use a Phillips head. Maybe established medicine is more like a bludgeon against a problem than something more subtle with less side effects, but that doesn't mean either side of the debate is for certain wrong or is abusing their children.
Too true, Byte. You are a wise woman.
Frem.
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
There's PLENTY of myth and voodoo in modern medicine, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiopathic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptogenic_disease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis_of_exclusion
These are not myth OR voodoo. The first two are acknowledging that there are some diseases where the cause or root is unknown. The second is the way that diagnosis is determinied. Seems sound to me. Do you have a better idea.
Quote:
Belive me, I have recent PERSONAL experience with this, via "acute febrile neutrophilic dermatosis" in combination with an autoimmune reaction and what they think was a mild stroke - just because they hide "we have no fucking idea" within medical doublespeak and fancy latin doesn't mean that ain't what they're saying.
And again, they have no bloody idea how to even treat it outside of steroids either, and were it not for one of them doctors actually listening to what the hell I was telling them instead of treating me like a piece of furniture I'd probably be dead.
And I think personal experience contributes a lot to ones world view, even though that is stating the bleeding obvious. By and large I have pretty good experiences with the medical profession. By and large. I have had the experience of being treated like a lump of meat by an arrogant gynocologist and have seen my mother treated condescendingly upon her death bed, which was pretty um.... But largely, medical professionals from ambos to nurses to doctors and specialists have been competent and compassionate, and kept me well informed and my family and I have had good medical treatment. So that is my experience so far. You've got to remember as well that I've only paid minimal dollars for such care. A couple of private treatments, and some gap payments for scans and GP appointments etc and everything else has been free. I've heard people whinge about their treatment at our local (public) hospital, but I really never have had cause for complaint, other than some long waits in casualty but that is to be expected. They triage cases, and if you are low priority, you wait.
Quote:
By NO means am I unaware of the near-miracles that *properly executed* modern medicine can provide, Corvera and Aziz are freakin mad geniuses, and the rest of my collective of mad-science doctors are no slouches either, the mere fact that I am mobile at all is very much one of those miracles - but doctors are not gods, they're bioware mechanics, and just like taking your car to a mechanic, taking your body to their office is no guarantee they actually DO know what the hell they're doing, or that they won't pull a fast one on you - my scratch and dent doc is in cahoots with certain folks who make anti-cholesterol drugs, for example (they pay for his golf junkets) and as a result will "push" his diagnosis and examination to include screening even if unwarranted, which I blow off cause he's a decent sort even so and doesn't ask questions about where the scratches and dents came from.
But I think there is a difference is saying some doctors are better than others, or some are incompetent than saying you distrust the whole tenet of modern medical science, or distrust the bulk of medical r
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Quote:Not at all at you, Anthony. You have never offended me, and I doubt you could.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I'm not sure whether your ire is directed at me or not, but you've come across as a bit aggressive in this matter.
Byte, that was beautifully said. Thank you for defending the intentions of the other side, as well you should. You are right. When I am emotional, it is easy for me to not stop at criticizing the ideology I disagree with, but also blame the people who embrace said ideology.
I am bitter about this issue. I am bitter at the sciencebasedmedicine rhetoric at DragonCon I am reminded of. I am bitter at the dismissal of concerned parents by telling them they don't know what regression means, or that they are simply making a superstitious and spurious connection between vaccines and autism. This issue hits very close to home, because I have listened to many stories from these parents when I used to be involved with vaccine choice activism. I can still hear their stories in my head. It makes me grieve for the loss of the children they used to have. It makes me angry that so few people listen to their voices.
Anthony, I think when you said some of these ideas used so frequently to brush these parents aside were "thought provoking," it pushed a button. I lashed out.
I apologize. That was not good debate. I stand corrected.
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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Hmm.. well, for the record, CTS is strawmanning me on the autism issue. Even though most cases of autism are present at birth I never said that autism is not environmental. I proposed all kinds of possibilities for the increase in autism, from the plethora of chemicals in the modern diet to lack of sunshine or eggs. After all, if you've got 50,000+ industrial chemicals to think about, plus all kinds if dietary and lifestyle changes, why stop at vaccines??? (HINT: prejudice may play a part.)
Also, the late diagnosis is not because of lazy parents but lazy medicine. Often the parents... moms particularly... are acutely aware than "something is wrong", but no matter how they bring it up to the pediatrician (assuming they even have insurance and a pediatrician to talk to) they are often advised Kids develop and different rates, just give it time
SO.
What I said was that limiting the scope of inquiry to vaccines is unrealistically restrictive. It is true that autism is a grab-bag of symptoms. Therefore, it is also likely that autism represents a constellation of causes, not just one.
AFA the cure (vaccines) being worse than the disease... has anyone looked at the complication rate of measles? Pertussis? Polio? Smallpox? Each parent has to make a choice... risk the disease, or risk the vaccine? In most cases, the disease is worse. Our daughter, who was neurocompromised at birth, got chicken pox the old-fashioned way... from other kids. Chicken pox, not the vaccine, chicken pox, sent her into a 1-hour seizure from which she NEVER recovered. Her seizures were "kindled"... that is exactly how it sounds... and from there she went into seizure after seizure, and from there into a regression which left her lost in her own house, mute, and trembling. THAT was the death of our bright but seizure-prone little girl.
There is a risk to doing nothing, as well as risk to doing something. Some parents are so frozen by the fear of treatment that their children suffer far far worse consequences. I have spoken with parents whose children were having 10-20 seizures per day, the kids constantly gorked out postictally, but mom or dad was paralyzed by the thought of medication side effects (?!?!?). The treatment of seizures is complex, multiple medications are not more effective than one, but no medication at all is usually much worse than one.
There are, alas, no absolutely reliable indicators as to which medication (or vaccine) will be effective for which child, and which child will get a trip to hell.
So when it comes to ANY treatment, you have to ask yourself: what is the risk of doing nothing? What is the risk of doing something?
For Gardasil, I have to ask: what is the consequence of doing nothing? The consequence is that child will become infected with HPV and possibly develop cervical cancer (for which there is already good screening and treatment). What is the risk of the vaccine? It seems more than the risk of the disease.
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Quote:I give you the CDC.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
If you ever meet someone who thinks what they believe WILL hurt people, but wants to continue doing it for the greater good, THEN you have a real problem on your hands.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#risk
Quote:
Measles and Rubella vs. MMR Vaccine
Even one serious adverse event in a million doses of vaccine cannot be justified if there is no benefit from the vaccination. If there were no vaccines, there would be many more cases of disease, and along with the more disease, there would be serious sequelae and more deaths. But looking at risk alone is not enough - you must always look at both risks and benefits. Comparing the risk from disease with the risk from the vaccines can give us an idea of the benefits we get from vaccinating our children.
DISEASE
Measles
Pneumonia: 6 in 100
Encephalitis: 1 in 1,000
Death: 2 in 1,000
Rubella
Congenital Rubella Syndrome: 1 in 4 (if woman becomes infected early in pregnancy)
VACCINES
MMR
Encephalitis or severe allergic reaction:
1 in 1,000,000
Diphtheria, Tetanus, and Pertussis vs. DTap Vaccine
DISEASE
Diphtheria
Death: 1 in 20
Tetanus
Death: 2 in 10
Pertussis
Pneumonia: 1 in 8
Encephalitis: 1 in 20
Death: 1 in 1,500
VACCINES
DTaP
Continuous crying, then full recovery: 1 in 1000
Convulsions or shock, then full recovery: 1 in 14,000
Acute encephalopathy: 0-10.5 in 1,000,000
Death: None proven
The fact is that a child is far more likely to be seriously injured by one of these diseases than by any vaccine. While any serious injury or death caused by vaccines is too many, it is also clear that the benefits of vaccination greatly outweigh the slight risk, and that many, many more injuries and deaths would occur without vaccinations. In fact, to have a medical intervention as effective as vaccination in preventing disease and not use it would be unconscionable.
Research is underway by the U.S. Public Health Service to better understand which vaccine adverse events are truly caused by vaccines and how to reduce even further the already low risk of serious vaccine-related injury.
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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In other words, CTS, you balance the risk: If my child has a 1/1000 chance of getting polio there is a 50% serious complication rate. If my child gets the vaccine, there is a 1/100000000 serious complication rate.
Hmm... which to choose? Gosh, I can't figure this one out!
For everyone else, please read my post previous to CTS where I describe how our daughter was permanently done in neurologically and intellectually by good old-fashioned chicken pox.
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Quote:I'm sorry if I misinterpreted you. But I got it from this conversation.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hmm.. well, for the record, CTS is strawmanning me on the autism issue. Even though most cases of autism are present at birth I never said that autism is not environmental.
Quote:It seemed to me you were denying the role of environment.
Sig: Autism is present AT BIRTH. Just to make this pellucidly clear, autism is present BEFORE vaccination. Got an explanation for that?
CTS: Possible explanation, if indeed there are both genetic and environmental factors in the etiology of autism. Genetics loads the gun. Environment pulls the trigger.
Sig: Nope. AUTISM is present at birth. Try again.
Quote:I have no desire to stop at vaccines. I suspect everything from mercury in the air and ocean, EMFs, MSG in foods, etc to possibly play a role in damaging developing neural pathways. We were discussing autism and vaccines, cause you know, that is what that (and this) thread was about, vaccination. But I would be happy to talk about autism in general and consider vaccination as only one of many possible variables.
I proposed all kinds of possibilities for the increase in autism, from the plethora of chemicals in the modern diet to lack of sunshine or eggs. After all, if you've got 50,000+ industrial chemicals to think about, plus all kinds if dietary and lifestyle changes, why stop at vaccines??? (HINT: prejudice may play a part.)
Quote:Then we agree on both these points.
What I said was that limiting the scope of inquiry to vaccines is unrealistically restrictive. It is true that autism is a grab-bag of symptoms. Therefore, it is also likely that autism represents a constellation of causes, not just one.
Quote:We agree again.
Each parent has to make a choice... risk the disease, or risk the vaccine?...
There are, alas, no absolutely reliable indicators as to which medication (or vaccine) will be effective for which child, and which child will get a trip to hell.
So when it comes to ANY treatment, you have to ask yourself: what is the risk of doing nothing? What is the risk of doing something?
Position #9 for me: I believe each parent should make this difficult decision individually, hopefully with consultations with a trusted health care professional. Parents are stuck with the consequences; they must be able to make the decisions. I oppose one-size-fits-all, compulsory medicine or vaccination policies.
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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Quote:You assume those numbers are valid.
Originally posted by SignyM:
In other words, CTS, you balance the risk: If my child has a 1/1000 chance of getting polio there is a 50% serious complication rate. If my child gets the vaccine, there is a 1/100000000 serious complication rate.
If you were selling polio vaccines, what kind of numbers would YOU put on the package?
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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The gubmint is not standing over you with a gun, making you vaccinate. They give you a choice: vaccinate if you want to send your child to public school. Or homeschool. The choice is yours. The problem is, you want to be able to make the choice without consequence, especially if you create a risk to others. So you want to send your unvaccinated child to school freely. Well, it doesn't work that way. You're not about to get the bennies for free.
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Quote:Those numbers were only hypothetical. However, my mom used to be a Kenny therapist for polio victims when she was young, before the polio vaccine came out. Yeah, the good old days... when kids wound up in iron lungs, or in leg braces or wheelchairs, and people were afraid to let their kids out of the house because of the epidemics.
You assume those numbers are valid
http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/exhibits/healthandhealing/topic/17/
Quote:
Just as World War II ended, the most severe epidemics hit the nation. Most polio outbreaks began in the summer. Since children were most frequently affected, communities reacted with dread, often closing down public swimming pools and movie theaters. The epidemic peaked in North Carolina and the United States in 1952, when a record 57,628 cases were reported nationally. Some referred to the national state of panic as “polio hysteria.”
The following year, Dr. Jonas Salk and his associates developed an injectable polio vaccine made from inactivated virus. Schoolchildren by the thousands were vaccinated, reducing the incidence of polio by almost 90 percent within two years. Later, the Salk vaccine was replaced by the Sabin oral vaccine, which was easier and less expensive to administer.
But yanno what CTS? You're very closed-minded. You couldn't even see that that "the sky is blue" if it is something that crossses your particular ideology. I have no interest in talking with you any further on the topic.
However, if anyone else cares to join in on a rational discussion of vaccines, I'd be happy to talk. Also, please read my post previous to CTS where I describe how our daughter was permanently done in neurologically and intellectually by good old-fashioned chicken pox.
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That's still not quite what I mean... Risk is something different than for absolute certain people being harmed and dying. I was more thinking of the Operative, and his bombing a civilian settlement.
While I agree with you that I don't understand a mindset that includes an assessment of allowable risk, I don't think that is out and out malicious. I encounter a lot of that kind of thinking in toxicology and environmental clean up. There are pitfalls and limitations, of course, but I can't say that they have been intentionally negligent or intentionally brought harm to anyone by basing cleanup standards to a 1:1,000,000 risk.
I do understand why you might be frustrated by doctors who don't want to listen, or certain kinds of traditionalism and hostility to alternative ideas in many fields of science, especially since it can sometimes take twenty years for an idea to gain credibility in some fields.
And I can't say I can understand WHY there would be a vaccine panel at Dragon-Con. Bizarre.
Sig: I don't see the chicken pox thing? Here I thought I had a bad case, my family might be susceptible to that, though, my dad has outbreaks of shingles so I probably will too.
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