Vaccinations, Pt 2
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 22, 2024 17:51
VIEWED: 18576
PAGE 1 of 17
Continued from here:
http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=50306&p=4
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To review and maybe help kick off further discussion, CTS indicated some interest in knowing more about Sig's comments about autism at birth and various causes.
At least, I think that's what the context was.
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Quote:No, that was Frem. Frem's interested in Sig's comments on autism. Not me.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
To review and maybe help kick off further discussion, CTS indicated some interest in knowing more about Sig's comments about autism at birth and various causes.
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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Hello,
Well, anyway, such comments are likely to be informative and thought provoking.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Well, anyway, such comments are likely to be informative and thought provoking.
Or oversimplistic and unoriginal parroting of medical propaganda.
Autism is a very complicated issue. You can't simply dismiss all potential environmental links by repeating the mantras, "Autism is found at birth" and "Parents only happen to notice autism right about the same age as vaccinations, but are too stupid and superstitious to know one couldn't possibly cause the other."
I once attended an autism/vaccination panel at DragonCon. The panel consisted of people from sciencebasedmedicine.org. The same tripe Magon and Siggy have been talking about is what they say, over and over and over again. Like an annoying broken record. At the root of it all is an obtuse refusal to listen to parents.
Currently, an average of 1 in 110 children is diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder. Granted, not all of them, or even a majority of them, are concerned about vaccines. But it still leaves a shitload of parents who are.
I see at least two choices here. Either you give a shit to what these parents have to say, or you don't and write them off as the equivalent of Truthers.
But those mantras have no real information or thought provocation. They are strictly a silencing platform, to shut parents like me up.
If perchance, you give a shit about these parents, the first thing you can do is look into regressive autism, a subtype of autism where the child loses previously gained skills.
http://psychsoma.co.za/psychdigest/autism_spectrum_disorders/
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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Before people start strawmanning me with positions I don't believe and statements I never made, I am going to summarize where I stand. For the record. If you are going to attack me, please attack me for one of the following.
1. To date, I have seen no good or conclusive evidence linking vaccines to autism.
2. To date, I have seen no good or conclusive evidence exonerating vaccines from autism.
3. Autism Spectrum Disorder is a heterogeneous disorder. It is practically a wastebasket diagnosis mixing many different diseases under the same umbrella.
4. There is significant over and underdiagnosis in ASD, leading to unreliable numbers.
5. Distinguishing subtypes with better and more precise clinical definitions is critical before we can even tackle etiology ("causes"). This step has never been done properly.
6. It is likely different subtypes have different etiologies. For example, it is likely classic Kanner autism with no GI symptoms has a different "cause" than regressive autism with severe GI symptoms.
7. Abandon the idea of "cause" and study mechanisms. The idea that any one disease has one "cause" is overly simplistic. Etiology is a question of mechanisms that involve many different factors in both environment and genetics. This is true not only of autism, but all diseases.
8. I am concerned something in some vaccines may be a possible factor for triggering or exacerbating autism in a subgroup of children. I believe a series of rigorous mechanistic and pharmokinetic studies should be done to test hypotheses of which ingredients it might be, if any at all.
This is all for now.
The above is only my opinion. It is not truth or fact. If you want to attack me for a position that is not listed above, I would appreciate being asked if I actually subscribe to that position. Thank you.
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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Well, um. I don't know that a faith in the medical establishment is necessarily an indication of not giving a crap about parents, or their children.
I think Sig cares about the kids. Maybe she's just concerned infants don't get fatal cases of whooping cough or something. Some people will use a hammer to remove a screw, other people might use a Phillips head. Maybe established medicine is more like a bludgeon against a problem than something more subtle with less side effects, but that doesn't mean either side of the debate is for certain wrong or is abusing their children.
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Quote:I believe it means they don't give a crap about THESE parents. Or their children. They are what are considered "acceptable losses" for the good of society.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, um. I don't know that a faith in the medical establishment is necessarily an indication of not giving a crap about parents, or their children.
If you give a crap about someone, you listen to them. Really listen.
Not listen while rolling your eyes and mentally making looney circles gestures. Not listen while thinking, "How ignorant and superstitious and gullible you must be to even think there might be a connection!" Not listen while telling them they are crazy for even considering biomedical treatment.
Just sayin'.
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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I wouldn't even go that far. People will believe what they will. Few people go through their life sneering to themselves that "yes, these little nobodies will be acceptable losses for the greater good."
That might be the unfortunate RESULT of the actions and beliefs, but that's causes what is called in the mental health biz a psychological investment with cognitive dissonance - a person is probably not going to accept that some belief of theirs might harm people, so they double down on thinking how GOOD their belief is for society even if evidence contradicts it.
If you ever meet someone who thinks what they believe WILL hurt people, but wants to continue doing it for the greater good, THEN you have a real problem on your hands.
Now, I feel I'm still undecided on this issue, and that traditional medicine has it's good and bad points. I don't think either you NOR Sig are bad people just because you don't agree on this issue, and hey, I don't even think you are all NATURALISTIC MEDICINE! And I don't think Sig is all TRADITIONAL MEDICINE HAS NO FLAWS! I've seen both of you willing to admit each method has it's shortcomings. What I haven't seen is a willingness to imagine you might both have good intentions when it comes to talking about types of medicine, or a recognition that neither of you are all one way.
I'll stand up for anyone who I think is being misunderstood, misinterpretted, or maligned. Each of you are human and deserve that much.
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Hello Sky,
I'm not sure whether your ire is directed at me or not, but you've come across as a bit aggressive in this matter.
Is it because I welcomed commentary from another person? Suggested it might be thought provoking?
These are not slings or arrows aimed at your outrageous fortune. I am sorry if you perceived offense.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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