I suspect vaccinations because...
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Saturday, January 13, 2024 18:35
VIEWED: 11985
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So my Son 'developed' Type 1 diabetes.
No genetic predisposition in the family.
What was he exposed to the Wife & I weren't?
Two things: Milk (he drinks hormone-free) & vaccinations.
Diabetes is on the rise in more well-to-do areas (where it's more likely everyone 'has their shots').
It's on the rise in cold areas (where peeps are more likely vaccinated for 'cold season').
And after he was diagnosed it was advised he get a flu shot to avoid getting it, which he PROMPTLY did a few weeks later.
My conclusion? Vaccinations are a scam. A dangerous one. Some peeps die, others get autism, etc.
Also, diabetes began its sharp incline in the early eighties, like, you know, AIDS.
We make our own plagues now, no need for fleas & ticks.
Where are you Signy, I need your comments...
The laughing Chrisisall
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Even if a vaccine is found to be 99.9% free of harmful side effects, that still puts thousands of people at risk.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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It's not a perfect world. DIabetes has many potential causes, and people's systems differ. And what if we all gave up vaccinations, what do you think the death count would be then? I certainly agree that we don't need nearly as many vaccines as we're encouraged to get, and I don't. But to throw the baby out with the bathwater...no, thank you. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
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Quote:Niki, where do you think you are???
Originally posted by Niki2:
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
This is RWED!!! You MUST see things MY WAY!!! GORRAMIT girl, there will be no AGREEMENT to disagree on this forum!!!!
LOL, okay, SOME vaccines are helpful & even necessary, but like wars, I think the majority are to be avoided, but that's MY opinion; your mileage may vary.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:As SOON as my Son was BORN they wanted to pump hep b into him, I told 'em to BACK OFF!
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Even if a vaccine is found to be 99.9% free of harmful side effects, that still puts thousands of people at risk.
Dumasses.
The laughing Chrisisall
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You crack me up.Quote:
We agree on that one.
SOME vaccines are helpful & even necessary, but like wars, I think the majority are to be avoided
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Here are two links that may shed light on the subject.
http://www.whale.to/v/coulter.html
http://www.vaccines.net/newpage11.htm
Of course, the establishment will produce tons of papers stating otherwise, that there is no link between vaccination and diabetes.
My position has always been that the benefits of vaccinations are greatly exaggerated, and their negative outcomes and dangers are entirely ignored. With a little bit more honesty in the industry, we could be advancing towards safer and more effective vaccines.
-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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There is a line of study that is looking at cow's milk as a potential cause of type 1 diabetes. The fact that you mentioned milk on your own got my interest.
"Abstract: Insulin autoantibodies (IAAs) often appear as the first sign of islet cell autoimmunity
in prediabetic children. Because cow's milk contains bovine insulin, we followed the
development of insulin-binding antibodies in children fed with cow's milk formula."
Despite the association, it's a line of study that's not been concluded either way yet. But I know of no similar association between vaccines and type 1 diabetes.
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Quote:Okay, now that my tears are ebbing, I thank you for that CTS. I should have fought against the vaccinations. I was being such a conformist asshole.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Here are two links that may shed light on the subject.
http://www.whale.to/v/coulter.html
http://www.vaccines.net/newpage11.htm
Chrisisall
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Quote:I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I was being such a conformist asshole.
Cause asshole you're not.
-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Quote:Sounds like important info- but my Son was breast fed & only started drinking milk around 5 years of age... still, it's a possible contributor I guess...
Originally posted by 1kiki:
children fed with cow's milk formula."
Chrisisall
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Quote:No sarcasm here. I never liked the idea of broad spectrum vaccination, yet I went with it anyway after delaying it for as long as I could so he could attend 1st grade... I should have known.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.
My Son is paying the price for my folding on the issue.
EDIT: My Wife just reminded that nothing's conclusive. So I'll stop beating myself up here.
Chrisisall
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"So I'll stop beating myself up here."
I'm so glad you posted that. I've made major mistakes with various decisions, and was berating myself over them. Then I had a revelation: if there was such a thing as perfect knowledge, no one would make any mistakes. But sadly, we must trod forward as best we can in uncertainty and doubt.
Or, as my favorite bumper sticker goes:
ONWARD!!
through the fog
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
It's not a perfect world. DIabetes has many potential causes, and people's systems differ. And what if we all gave up vaccinations, what do you think the death count would be then? I certainly agree that we don't need nearly as many vaccines as we're encouraged to get, and I don't. But to throw the baby out with the bathwater...no, thank you. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
Yup.
And hasn't the autism thing been soundly denounced? By everyone but the scientific giant that is Jenny McCarthy, that is.
Sorry about your son, though, Chris. Hope things work out.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Quote:Denounced ain't dis-proven in my book.
Originally posted by Storymark:
And hasn't the autism thing been soundly denounced?
Remember the scientists that said margarine was healthy for you, or the scientists that said formula was healthier than breast milk or scientists that said we actually went to the Moon... wait, we did do that, sorry, PNing a little on that one...
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:No, it hasn't. It has been soundly denounced by people who never needed much evidence to soundly denounce it to begin with.
Originally posted by Storymark:
And hasn't the autism thing been soundly denounced? By everyone but the scientific giant that is Jenny McCarthy, that is.
The rest of us are still on the fence if not convinced there is a link.
I hypothesize that autism has a heterogeneous etiology. Amongst possible causes are genetics, environmental toxins, a retrovirus, electromagnetic radiation (EMR), celiac disease, and vaccines. These variables may all interact for the symptoms commonly known as Autistic Spectrum Disorder.
Take someone with a genetic predisposition. Throw in toxins such as mercury or MSG, both of which kill neurons. Weaken the blood brain barrier with EMRs and gluten (in case of celiac disease), which allows all those toxins to go straight to the brain. Add a retrovirus which causes gastrointestinal, immunological, and neurodegenerative damage, which is activated and crosses the blood brain barrier when the immune system is hyperactivated (as in the case of vaccination). You get all the ingredients lined up, and voila, an autistic kid. You have some of them lined up, and you have a mildly autistic kid. And so forth.
My kid has some symptoms common to autism such as mild stimming and emotional hypersensitivity. I am convinced if he were vaccinated AND assaulted with neurotoxins AND exposed to heavy EMRs, he would be full blown autistic.
-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Hello,
The man who tortures himself for all his ignorant choices should only do so if he is God. The rest of us mortals make due with less than omniscience. For every claim there is counterclaim. For every fact there is proof and disproof. For every piece of knowledge there is trust in those who gleaned it. Our world is so wide and wonderful that we can not hope to experience it all for ourselves, nor even to understand it all for ourselves. We build our lives on tales told, and must place some trust in the tellers. We do this not because we wish it, but because there is too much muchness out there for us to live any other way.
Failures of faulty knowledge are no more causes for guilt than bolts burrowing into us from out of the blue. Who could have seen it coming? Who could have known and been sure of the knowledge? We are lucky to get anything right in this world. We are certainly too small and pathetic to curse ourselves with God's burden of all-knowing.
In short...
It's not your fault.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So my Son 'developed' Type 1 diabetes.
No genetic predisposition in the family.
What was he exposed to the Wife & I weren't?
Two things: Milk (he drinks hormone-free) & vaccinations.
Diabetes is on the rise in more well-to-do areas (where it's more likely everyone 'has their shots').
It's on the rise in cold areas (where peeps are more likely vaccinated for 'cold season').
And after he was diagnosed it was advised he get a flu shot to avoid getting it, which he PROMPTLY did a few weeks later.
My conclusion? Vaccinations are a scam. A dangerous one. Some peeps die, others get autism, etc.
Also, diabetes began its sharp incline in the early eighties, like, you know, AIDS.
We make our own plagues now, no need for fleas & ticks.
Where are you Signy, I need your comments...
The laughing Chrisisall
I think your son has unfortunately developed a horrible disease and are looking for something to blame.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:No, it hasn't. It has been soundly denounced by people who never needed much evidence to soundly denounce it to begin with.
Originally posted by Storymark:
And hasn't the autism thing been soundly denounced? By everyone but the scientific giant that is Jenny McCarthy, that is.
The rest of us are still on the fence if not convinced there is a link.
Hmm, the science seems to say there is no connection. Those who are so "convinced" as far as I can tell, have little but conviction backing them.
"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"
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Did your son die of smallpox or polio?
H
"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.
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Quote:Makes sense. There's usually never 'THE ONE' cause for something.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I am convinced if he were vaccinated AND assaulted with neurotoxins AND exposed to heavy EMRs, he would be full blown autistic.
Chrisisall
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Quote:Non-sequiter, your facts are uncoordinated. You will be sterilized.
Originally posted by Hero:
Did your son die of smallpox or polio?
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Quote:margarine is good for you?
Originally posted by Storymark:
Hmm, the science seems to say
Do I have to make a list of how 'science' was wrong in the past? Even the very recent past?
And don't get me started on 'science's' tests in Africa & southern Black towns...
Science is a tool to be used or misused, like any other. And remember, 58.6% of all statistics are made up.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:Thanks, man.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
The man who tortures himself for all his ignorant choices should only do so if he is God.
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I really agree. It's not your fault, even if it's the vaccine. We've all made a lot of bad choices and we were pushed quite mightily by TPTB to do so, and often they seemed like the right choices, even essential ones. I can't even count the number of them I've made.
I also want to add a word of caution, which makes avoiding any blame game rally important: Be wary of psychological investment. It leads us to bad future decisions, and sometimes self-delusion. I recently came to the conclusion that deaths from war are totally unnecessary, and have been for a while, and that the loss of soldiers is done intentionally to create a psychological investment. I think it's really that bad.
Re: Vaccines? I'm getting more worried about them. I know that sometimes they work, and can be important. I used to work with hep-B+ downs syndrome people, and so I got the vaccine. Everyone who got it did fine, those who didn't, got hep-B. It was one of the new genetically engineer vaccines, but I was convinced it worked. That said, there are dangers that we were not told about. It's possible that one of the four or so mutations that caused my sister's brain cancer came from a vaccine-borne hitchhiker virus.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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Good info Dream, and sorry about your Sister.
Strange, peeps scream about Wash dying, but we all have loved ones gone away...
Chrisisall
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"I recently came to the conclusion that deaths from war are totally unnecessary,"
Hello,
This statement deserves its own thread.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:Yeah, you can call it "science."
Originally posted by Storymark:
Hmm, the science seems to say there is no connection.
More accurately, the pseudoscience seems to say there is no connection.
Here is an example of why those studies prove nothing.
http://freedom2question.blogspot.com/2009/05/what-is-pseudoscience.htm
l
-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Chris, actually I don't think the finger of blame for the spike in Diabetes lands on vaccinations, although they do have issues I'll not argue, but this I think is a different issue altogether.
I think the blame for the Diabetes spike can be firmly laid at the feet of High Fructose Corn Syrup, which *WASN'T* in everydamnthing imagineable when you grew up, and while the boy was growing up, was being crammed into everything possible, as fast as possible - for crying out loud, Bologna??
And worse, just like MSG or Transfats, they OBFUSCATE it with different names in order to dodge truth in labelling laws (if you realize this, and have the list of those alt-names handy, see for yourself, as Meijers "Organic" chicken soup actually contains MORE MSG than the non-organic store brand, as a case in point!) so it's hard to find anything whatever in a conventional diet of a normal person who has not the time and money to spend searching out other options...
Factually I defy you to pick up ten random supermarket food items and wind up with less than 50% of them containing HFCS - NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE, everything from cookies to cheese, to as I mentioned, Bologna, in stuff where a sweetener of any kind MAKES NO SENSE.
You and me, we got into maturity before they started pouring that crap into every single thing you could imagine, and consider how long it probably went on before anyone twigged to it and started howling - like how long it took for folks to realize Aspartame was freakin poisonous (which you might note, has quietly disappeared from most products, without actually yanno, ADMITTING anyhing, oh no...) so likely there was a point where a lot of stuff in his diet was loaded with it and all of us unawares of the danger since the FDA is naught more than an arm of Big Pharma these days, which has a vested interest in creating a market for their products, obviously.
Now, of course the naturalists will cry havoc, and with them it's more faith than evidence - which annoys the piss outta me cause why bullshit when there IS evidence a-plenty, it demeans the facts one has, right ?
So, this.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070823094819.htm
S'funny, I think, how the so-called "health" experts told us sugar and butter were so bad for us, and all but forced replacement with "healthy" alternatives such as transfats, HFCS, and Aspartame, oh yeah, reallllly healthy, that.
Ergo, their track record of disasters gives me NO faith in them whatever.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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"Here is an example of why those studies prove nothing."
To use one example to label ALL studies as 'proving nothing' isn't very scientific. There are many individual studies as well as several meta-analytical studies that all show the same thing. Unless you address those as well you don't have a good case to make.
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Quote:To use a phrase from a Walter Hill film I saw in my teens in 1979, "Fuckin' A!"
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Ergo, their track record of disasters gives me NO faith in them whatever.
(What movie, & who said it?)
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:He's not labeling all studies, just the potential and/or actual FAITH in studies- there's a difference.
Originally posted by 1kiki:
To use one example to label ALL studies as 'proving nothing' isn't very scientific.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:Yeah, you can call it "science."
Originally posted by Storymark:
Hmm, the science seems to say there is no connection.
More accurately, the pseudoscience seems to say there is no connection.
Here is an example of why those studies prove nothing.
http://freedom2question.blogspot.com/2009/05/what-is-pseudoscience.
I stopped reading when why they said "As an example, I will use a study frequently cited by government and health authorities as further "scientific" evidence that thimerosal (mercury) in vaccines do not cause autism."
Thimerosal is not mercury. It is Ethyl(2-mercaptobenzoato-(2-)-O,S)
mercurate(1-) sodium, a mercury containing compound. That is like calling table salt, chlorine.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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"He's not labeling all studies ..."
No, YOU are labeling all studies. "Here is an example of why those studies prove nothing."
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Hello,
I think the real factor at work here is this-
Many citizenry of this land no longer trust the country, nor the businesses which operate in this country, nor any institution created with a supposed concern for their welfare. This mistrust is so deep that it is easier for some to assume that a palliative is actually a poison if an authority claims the reverse. This is seen as preferable rather than believe the statements of government, corporations, or researchers whose motives are obscure and perceived as sinister.
The doubt runs so deep that it becomes a perverse twist upon The Emperor's New Clothes. If we see a clothed politician or businessman or their endorsing scientists, we assume that they are naked. So much does our mistrust command our senses, that any fact labeled by such people falls into question even against the evidence of our eyes. The people have been fooled before, and on so many occasions, that a declaration of the fact of gravity will have people buying parachutes, and a declaration about the spherical nature of the world will have people discarding their globes and atlases.
This is the problem. It is a profound loss of faith in the many multitudes of people that we rely upon for the truths we can't personally verify.
And most tragic of all is that this: They have earned this mistrust. They purchased this mistrust in regular payments of blood and betrayal.
It is a situation where we all lose.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:Oh, gloves off, Fuck you, asshole.
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"He's not labeling all studies ..."
No, YOU are labeling all studies. "Here is an example of why those studies prove nothing."
Read what you need to into things.
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Quote:Yeah, and this is why we need to find the truth between the lines for ourselves. Not every scientific study is a set of lies, nor is every one to be believed in like Gospel.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
The people have been fooled before, and on so many occasions, that a declaration of the fact of gravity will have people buying parachutes, and a declaration about the spherical nature of the world will have people discarding their globes and atlases.
Unfortunately, not every person has the time to be a driven self-educated doctor/lawyer/sociologist- what have you.
BUT, no questioning inevitably leads to no hugs & no puppies.
The laughing Chrisisall
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"Oh, gloves off, Fuck you, asshole.
Read what you need to into things."
Hmmm. All I did was point out that CTSky made a very global statement. What she posted was not 'a few studies' or 'some studies', or 'many', or 'the majority', or 'most', or 'nearly all', or 'with few exceptions' - but 'those studies', without exception.
And in the previous post I pointed out that without addressing the other studies that seem credible and indicate no connection between autism and thimerosal, she really didn't back up her claim.
What I was TRYING to point out was that there is a lot of evidence that's trending one way, which seems a pretty non-controversial position.
But OK. Be pissed off about it. It actually doesn't matter to me though it seems pretty silly.
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Quote:Be trendy, it actually doesn't matter to me though it seems pretty silly.
Originally posted by 1kiki:
What I was TRYING to point out was that there is a lot of evidence that's trending one way,
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And like all believers, you have THE TRUTH. Because apparently, the process of investigation and result is meaningless to you.
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Hello,
I'm not sure why this thread suddenly degraded into personal insult. I think it is a bad trend. And a silly one.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Quote:Point taken. Thanks.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I'm not sure why this thread suddenly degraded into personal insult. I think it is a bad trend. And a silly one.
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Quote:You do not SEEM to understand that investigation is absolutely what I'm promulgating. Not blind belief in so-called conclusive studies. Nor blind belief in anecdotal evidence. Or mere suspicions.
Originally posted by 1kiki:
And like all believers, you have THE TRUTH. Because apparently, the process of investigation and result is meaningless to you.
It's almost December & it's near sixty degrees here in the state if Massachusetts. It's NOT rocket science to observe that something's not quite normal.
THAT'S what I'm saying. Individual intelligent analysis counts for more (sometimes) than corporate-sponsored & (sometimes) skewed results.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Non-sequiter, your facts are uncoordinated. You will be sterilized.
Originally posted by Hero:
Did your son die of smallpox or polio?
Actually if you read the original post he concludes that vaccines are a scam.
So, polio, smallpox, parvo, distemper, bird flu, that red dust that drove most of the original visitors away, what did he die from?
H
"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.
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"Not blind belief in so-called conclusive studies. Nor blind belief in anecdotal evidence. Or mere suspicions."
Well, that's why I used the word 'trending'. See, something could come along and be the key to elucidating all those studies in a new way. Or, a whole bunch of studies could be conducted and reverse what we now think are reliable observations. I'm not claiming 'fact' (though I admit I use that word when I'm referring to robust observations) or 'proof', but so far, that is the way studies are running.
I personally know a few people of my generation who are type 1 diabetics. When I was growing up vaccines were few and far between, produce came off the farm, and organic pesticides hadn't been synthesized yet. So it's something that definitely happens even without the NEW usual suspects. Nature does sometimes suck all on its own.
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Quote:Apologies, I will now clarify:
Originally posted by Hero:
Actually if you read the original post he concludes that vaccines are a scam.
MOST vaccines in TODAY'S world and time are at best a harmless economic scam, and at worst a serious health risk given the political agenda, the amateurish preparation by minimum wage, ill trained personnel, and the desire to trust in those that know 'better than you do' despite sloppy, rushed and incomplete data.
Some vaccines are, however, necessary and vital (like the one that Robert Neville took to save him from dying or becoming one of 'The Family').
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:Agreed. Okay, I take back the effueahole and apologize. I'm a might touchy today, more than is usual for me. This whole diabetes thing has spun me about.
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Nature does sometimes suck all on its own.
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Quote:I didn't say, "This example proves all studies are worthless."
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Here is an example of why those studies prove nothing."
To use one example to label ALL studies as 'proving nothing' isn't very scientific.
I said, "The studies are poorly conducted and are pseudoscience. This is an example of such pseudoscience."
Big difference.
Quote:Yes, and I CAN address those as well. The arguments would be similar to those made in this study.
There are many individual studies as well as several meta-analytical studies that all show the same thing. Unless you address those as well you don't have a good case to make.
But I won't. Cause you know, I have a life. Plus, even if I spent the next 3 months writing books about this topic, it still won't sway you, so why bother?
-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Quote:Uh, nitpick much?
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I stopped reading when why they said "As an example, I will use a study frequently cited by government and health authorities as further "scientific" evidence that thimerosal (mercury) in vaccines do not cause autism."
Thimerosal is not mercury.
The concern about thimerosal is that it contains mercury. When someone says, "Thimerosal in vaccines does not cause autism," what they really mean is "Mercury in vaccines does not cause autism."
Stop reading if you wish, but it would be like rejecting an article discussing eating paint chips (lead) and brain damage because paint chips are not the same thing as lead.
You're missing the point.
-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I think the real factor at work here is this-
Many citizenry of this land no longer trust the country, nor the businesses which operate in this country, nor any institution created with a supposed concern for their welfare. This mistrust is so deep that it is easier for some to assume that a palliative is actually a poison if an authority claims the reverse. This is seen as preferable rather than believe the statements of government, corporations, or researchers whose motives are obscure and perceived as sinister.
The doubt runs so deep that it becomes a perverse twist upon The Emperor's New Clothes. If we see a clothed politician or businessman or their endorsing scientists, we assume that they are naked. So much does our mistrust command our senses, that any fact labeled by such people falls into question even against the evidence of our eyes. The people have been fooled before, and on so many occasions, that a declaration of the fact of gravity will have people buying parachutes, and a declaration about the spherical nature of the world will have people discarding their globes and atlases.
This is the problem. It is a profound loss of faith in the many multitudes of people that we rely upon for the truths we can't personally verify.
And most tragic of all is that this: They have earned this mistrust. They purchased this mistrust in regular payments of blood and betrayal.
It is a situation where we all lose.
Allow me to present another viewpoint there Anthony...
What you're seeing, not just here but in all the world around you is a combination of Santa Claus effect and that whole stages of ideology thing we discussed elsewhere, because for whatever reason many people these days are finally questioning a lot of the basic assumptions they've held or had foisted on them...
And discovering THAT THEY ARE LIES.
And so, this opens the horrible can o worms question - WHAT ELSE DID THEY LIE ABOUT ?
How much of what I believe, what I thought I knew, is actually true ?
There is, quite literally, *mindbreaking* horror in those concepts, they can destroy a person, which is why I am so cautious in leading people down a path that leads to that impasse of thought.
Now for a time, simply because of the terrifying thought that they might have dismissed something important, that may be critical to their survival in this new mental world of theirs - sure, they will at least hear out even the looniest of barking moonbat crazies, cause in discarding external values they must then set their own - this phase passes soon enough, with the rare exception of someone so broken they cannot survive without an external value set and latch on to one "cause' or another simply to have one as a core to rebuild themselves around, which is mostly what happened to PN, although he's not nowhere near as batshit as he puts off, and quite on purpose, too.
Worst of it is the ones who go straight to denial, and will viciously attack those who question or defy, in much the same manner as a distraught relative screaming HE IS NOT DEAD over a corpse with zero vital signs despite what the obvious realities are - I use that as a metaphor for our current system, cause frankly, it is dead - cue the howling harpies swarming on ME for that comment, but better me than those who have just discovered their mental training wheels in a world now strange and unconfortable to them.
And as I mentioned, eventually comes the point where the collusion of Big Pharma, Government, the FDA and the scourge of so-called protectors totally breaks any faith in them, that this was coming I pointed out ages ago with all the assurance of a physicist telling you just how long a rock of a known weight will fall from a certain height - ain't MY fault most folks choose denial, is it now ?
This is a messy process, it is - I point that out a lot, cause it's also dangerous, for example if a pandemic does occur before a trustworthy medical system can be reconstructed, we're fucked cause folks w
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Quote:
Agreed. Okay, I take back the effueahole and apologize. I'm a might touchy today, more than is usual for me. This whole diabetes thing has spun me about.
Apology welcomed and sincerely reciprocated. This is a new thing you're dealing with? In your shoes I'd be pretty rocky myself.
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Quote:For what it's worth, I agree with you about the need to investigate independently and not simply take Paul Offit's word that vaccines are the next best thing to manna from heaven. The industry has categorically refused to listen to parent concerns and seriously investigate potential dangers. They have lost the trust of many parents. It is their own doing.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
MOST vaccines in TODAY'S world and time are at best a harmless economic scam, and at worst a serious health risk given the political agenda, the amateurish preparation by minimum wage, ill trained personnel, and the desire to trust in those that know 'better than you do' despite sloppy, rushed and incomplete data.
I have often found it curious that so many anti-corporation folks would find it so easy to make an exception and trust pharmaceutical corporations unquestioningly. Bizarre.
My husband, who is much more educated than I, is convinced that all vaccines are a scam, neither effective nor safe, the modern day snake oil. So he would agree with you.
I am more cautious with my pronouncement. I believe vaccines are decidedly UNSAFE, but vaccines in general have some limited effectiveness. It is good for reducing symptoms for a short period of time after vaccination. I have reason to believe it does not prevent infection in many diseases, and if it does, it does not prevent infection for very long. I think vaccination usually results in subclinical infections which reduces diagnosis, giving the illusion of decreased disease rates.
So, benefits are greatly exaggerated, to make a buck. Such is the nature of greed.
-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Quote:Both funny & disturbing ref to The Stand there, Frem.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
now they're trying to lab-grow some horrific hybrid variation of an H-series jumper flu which has Captain Trips written all over it, and I am far from sanguine about their motives here.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:Reasonably new. Putting off the reality of it a bit, then it crashes on you a little. Still, it's not the end of the world or anything.
Originally posted by 1kiki:
This is a new thing you're dealing with?
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I admit that I'm not a geneticist, but I seem to recall something or another about dominance or recessiveness in genes...
I'm fairly sure that its possible that you and your son's mother both carry the recessive genes necessary for the trait to appear. Also, I recently read an article that makes links to things like famine and it's affects on (particularly) granchildren and later generations...So, I suppose it's possible your great-great grandaddy didn't eat his vegetables, and maybe THAT was the cause...The point is-this timeline and it's sequence of events were set in motion the moment of fertilization. Having recently come to an understanding of my kids various problems, and mine as well, I can safely say that I never stop looking for possible cures, but there is NO WAY IN HELL that you are going to find out any time soon as to the cause. It is a moot point. Stop kicking yourself...It's unproductive... 
STOP THAT!!!
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Thanks. I'm sincerely tryin' not to.
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It seems to me you have a good perspective. Not trying to jump in and tell you what to do but .... I spent years stressing over a child with major disabilities and ongoing medical problems. I wish I had stressed less and focused on the good stuff more.
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Quote:Now I'm REALLY sorry I blasted all over you.
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I spent years stressing over a child with major disabilities and ongoing medical problems. I wish I had stressed less and focused on the good stuff more.
Anger is just the easy side of sadness.
But joy is now, for each moment is alive with possibilities!
(sounds trite, but it's really what we have, all we have.
Unless you have a yacht...
Frack, I have to go for the funny... it's a defense mech)
Chrisisall
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Hello Chris,
I said this recently to someone else.
My family is rife with diabetics. Generations plagued with it.
Cinnamon. Get Cinnamon pill dietary supplements.
Does amazing things to correct blood sugar. I have no idea why, but my father and I have both benefited.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Well, it's so much easier to see when it's someone else. I know a family - they have one son. He was a surfer, songwriter, singer - on vacation last summer before he went on to graduate school in music. But he was involved in a horrible car accident. He lost some limbs, and some of his brain. For many weeks he was in a coma, fighting cryptic hard to localize infections, having repeated surgeries, fighting the ventilator, down to skin and bones. It looked like he might not make it. But he came back, only - not the same as before. The family is still devastated. They can't let go of the son he was. More important I think, they can't let go of the assumptions they made about what he would be. But it seems to me, if he is happy, then it's all good. It seems better to focus on the potential for the good things in life than to tie an anchor around your neck of the things that you thought were going to be.
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Quote:I have no words but thanks, I will absolutely try it!!!
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Cinnamon. Get Cinnamon pill dietary supplements.
Does amazing things to correct blood sugar. I have no idea why, but my father and I have both benefited.
Chrisisall
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Quote:I'm near to tears readin' this Kiki, great words & better meaning. Thanks.
Originally posted by 1kiki:
it seems to me, if he is happy, then it's all good. It seems better to focus on the potential for the good things in life than to tie an anchor around your neck of the things that you thought were going to be.
The closer to laughing Chrisisall
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I really appreciated your last post about your family friend's son Kiki. I'm hoping his brain will learn to compensate and it will make a full recovery. But even if it doesn't I believe that you're right, safety, contentment and fulfillment are the most important things, even if they look different than what his parents wanted/were expecting..
Is the child from your previous post yours or that of someone you know/are related to? I guess I just want to know you better because the more I know about you the more I get along with you.
Chris a chara, I would tend to agree with Frem about all the crap in the food supply these days, its realllllly bad for one's body, especially if one's body has tendencies to process differently. I'm not saying that a vaccine connection is impossible, because it isn't impossible, just that there are more likely culprits nearer by and available. Also bad genes have to come from somewhere, maybe he's the first one in the family with the mutation? Sometimes that happens, it happen to our ancestors so it can still happen. Diabetes runs on my dad's side of the family, type one and type two, I hope it skips me.
I remember when you first mentioned it on this board, its hard for parents when things don't come out quite like they'd hope in regards to their kids' health so what you're feeling makes sense, the frustration, wanting to understand why. But this isn't your fault, I know you know that.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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R, you rock. Muchas Graciasisall.
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Hi Chris, sorry to hear you son has diabetes type 1.
I have nothing to say that hasn't already been said on the vaccinations issue, only that I don't think you should beat yourself up about it, if you are.
My crazy unsubstantiated theory is that in the future we will discover that viruses are responsible for a lot more diseases than we ever imagined, including onset of diabetes and cancers. But my knowledge on this stuff is limited to having watched a few documentaries and not having any expertise in this area.
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Quote:It is not as crazy or as unsubstantiated as you might think.
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
My crazy unsubstantiated theory is that in the future we will discover that viruses are responsible for a lot more diseases than we ever imagined, including onset of diabetes and cancers.
I am suspecting that autism is caused in part by a retrovirus.
-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Uh, nitpick much?
The concern about thimerosal is that it contains mercury. When someone says, "Thimerosal in vaccines does not cause autism," what they really mean is "Mercury in vaccines does not cause autism."
Stop reading if you wish, but it would be like rejecting an article discussing eating paint chips (lead) and brain damage because paint chips are not the same thing as lead.
You're missing the point.
No it is not a not pick at all. Thimerosal is not mercury. If you think, or an artical suggests that when someone talks about thimerosal they are talking about mercury you are showing a lack of understanding. That lack of understanding will lead you to think studies are flawed simple because you do not understand what they are saying.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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Ok, I just read an article in my good ol' fashioned paper newspaper, heh, that China is getting in on the vaccine making game. I'm glad mine is just about done with hers... Can't trust them with their OWN baby formula, or dog food, or drywall or the safety of a kindergarten class... I ain't trustin' em with something as complicated as a vaccine....
Now you can worry... 
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It's an organomercury compound, ethylmercury is a metabolite. In solution, ethylmercury degrades into inorganic mercury. It's not an incorrect statement to say vaccines have mercury in them when they have thimerosal in them.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's an organomercury compound, ethylmercury is a metabolite. In solution, ethylmercury degrades into inorganic mercury. It's not an incorrect statement to say vaccines have mercury in them when they have thimerosal in them.
Maybe it some solutions, but not in the body. Ethylmercury also does not accumulate in the body that way elemental mercury or other mercury compounds can.
http://www.immunizationinfo.org/science/elimination-methylmercury-and-
ethylmercury-body
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylmercury
http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/thiomersal/statement_jul2006/
en/
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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Hello,
I wonder what the benefit is of using a mercury compound in these injections? It seems odd that such a thing should be desirable, even if it proved to be non-harmful. Does this substance solve some essential problem to the vaccination process?
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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It's still toxic, especially in regards to the nervous system (though dose is a factor in regards to vaccines), and it still releases mercury in solution (such as the human body). I believe CTS was quite in fact correct. Thimerosal has mercury in it, it can degrade to mercury in vivo, therefore it is a source of mercury.
From your own link:
Quote:
The researchers found higher levels of inorganic mercury in the brains and kidneys of the thimerosal treated animals than in the methylmercury-fed animals.
*shrug*
Anthony - it's meant as a preservative that might kill anything else that gets into the vaccine, and it weakens live virus. As always, the question is whether those benefits exceed the risks.
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Hello,
Goodness, do we still use live virus vaccines? That seems like a terrible idea.
It also occurs to me that if it will kill anything that gets into the vaccine, it can't be particularly healthy.
I know almost nothing of medicine, but wouldn't it be better to use dead virus in a non-toxic solution, and just be extra careful not to contaminate the vaccine?
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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The point of a vaccine is to prep a strong immune response in the event of the real thing. The protein coat of a (dead) virus is often enough, but sometimes they want the reaction to be more pronounced. With all the risks that might entail.
Sometimes we also use multi-virus vaccines, which is also probably an achievement in short sightedness.
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Hello,
I wonder what screening process they use for recipients of these more hazardous vaccines. I have seen footage of poor, malnourished people in third-world countries receiving vaccines in a seeming assembly-line process. Were they vetted, I wonder?
If the subject needs to be strong and healthy before a vaccine is administered, I hope they make sure those criteria are met.
Sorry if these comments are ignorant. I really know nothing about the process.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Yeah Wish that is scary.
Anthony, I think the questions you're asking are good ones that the industry should be asking itself on a regular basis so as to make things as safe and affective as possible. I wish people could be that objective about their own field.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Well Anthony, that can of worms goes all the way back to Salk and batches of vaccine contaminated with SV40 which were still used even despite evidence some people knew this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SV40#Polio_vaccine_contamination
I'm sure those responsible (along with Asbestos companies) were laughing up their sleeve later when that nutter Surgeon General Koop (who it has now been prettymuch acknowledged, was clinically INSANE while in service as SG, mind you) was so hell bent on blaming EVERY case of Mesothelioma on cigarette smoking, no matter how they had to "massage" the studies to do it - not that there's no link, just that his fanaticism left a lotta people swinging and focused blame unfairly on a single source.
Then comes the 1976 Swine Flu panic, and a "vaccine" which killed more people than the flu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbreak
And guess who was up to the neck in it, and make out quite a bit financially ?
Donald Rumsfeld - who was ALSO involved in the approval of Aspartame as "safe" despite it's obvious toxicity even then.
Fast forward to Tamiflu and the "bird flu" panic, running by the same goddamn playbook as 1976, with Rumsfeld once again heavily involved and profiting, and once again the "cure" turned out to be worse than the disease - it's been banned in a couple countries and side effects or no, has also been found to be almost wholly ineffective besides.
http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2009/04/19/Report-Tamiflu-may-increase
-abnormal-acts/UPI-37321240170426/
That was enough to draw my attention to the matter in the first place, and then the revelations started coming bang bang bang, from experimentation and accusations of deliberate sterilization via vaccination in Africa - of which there's no conclusive evidence in either direction, but given further events I do not believe the Pharma companies deserve benefit of the doubt, for medicine must always be ethically above reproach or it is no such thing.
Then there are the known problems with the MMR and it's own link to GBS, a link you'll see between many vaccines - problem is that no one seems to know yet the exact method of what will cause a patient to react so to the MMR or why/how - instead it's been chosen to simply write them off as acceptable collateral damage for a vaccine I feel is of rather dubious value.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain%E2%80%93Barr%C3%A9_syndrome
The words "acceptable losses" are meaningless when one of them is a member of YOUR family.
Thimerosal is suspect, of course, but so too are many adjuvants, which seem to be more harmful than the preservative itself and in combination with such may well be a known cause of neurocomplications that no one wants to admit.
http://www.whale.to/vaccine/adjuvants.html
For them shovelling the mercury-is-safe notion whatever, please note that it's no longer used in dental fillings BECAUSE it is dangerous, you can't have that both ways, either it's toxic or it ain't.
And why it's used, Anthony is simple - money, it's cheaper to use preserved multi-dose than single shot without such preservatives, which mind you ARE available although few will tell you and aquiring them isn't exactly easy - having recently assisted a friends pregnant wife in doing so despite my concerns, as the potentially safest option.
Then comes the "live" vaccines - which I noted before the CDC removed and purged the figures, the physical outbreak map of most flu outbreaks seemed to cluster around places giving flu shots, particularly those serving the elderly, whos immune system may not be in proper shape to wreck a live vaccine and thus they become carriers spreading the infection instead of helped - something no doubt tremendously profitable, and a downright chilling notion if that was as intentional as I've lately begun to suspect it was.
Worse is crap like flumist, which is essentially blasting live flu virus into the sinuses, and you consider say a walmart flu clinic serving children, who WILL sneeze in response, and contaminate the whole goddamn st
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I have thought for many years now that the key to a successful vaccination program is to start any series with highly antigenic bits and pieces only, working your way up to live attenuated virus.
No vaccine is without risk. But like anything in life, you have to assess the upside and the downside both. The downside of not vaccinating can be far worse for far more people.
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Hello,
What ails these people?
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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http://www.youngausskeptics.com/2009/05/vaccines-mercury-and-you/
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polio
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Hello,
I recently read up on polio because it is currently being featured on a television show I enjoy.
What I read suggests that you have to eat/drink excrement in order to get it.
Also that about 1 in 1000 people actually come down with the paralysis.
Also that the virus is thousands of years old.
Also that, despite its age, people only seemed to get it in any quantity in the 19th and 20th centuries.
From the first and final perspective, the illness is very interesting.
I wonder why it suddenly became a problem in the modern era. I also wonder if we shouldn't invest more money into helping people to not eat and drink excrement.
--Anthony
_______________________________________________
"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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And the downside OF vaccinating...
Can be exactly the same.
Did you not even READ those articles about vaccine-caused polio outbreaks, before jerking the knee ?
That seems almost a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't, and those people, hell, ANY people, deserve better fekkin options than that.
We CAN do better, we SHOULD do better, and we don't, cause it's not profitable.
I am of the firm opinion that we should - given as a world community, meaning not just the US, but every nation on the planet collectively, have the actual MEANS to - make things like enough food, clean water, and proper health care, all of a certain minimum standard, into basic human rights.
That we have not, nor seem to have any intention to, bothers me in a way I can't really find the words for at the moment.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Quote:This statement is mostly based on a study by Michael Pichichero, where he compared ethylmercury levels from Day 1 to Day 21 after vaccination and found that blood ethylmercury levels fell rapidly. He concluded ethylmercury is excreted and eliminated from the body fast.
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Ethylmercury also does not accumulate in the body that way elemental mercury or other mercury compounds can.
Problem with that? The blood samples from Day 1 through Day 21 came from 21 different children.
And the obvious whitewashing of the fact that just because it isn't in the blood doesn't mean it is outside of the body. If you compare the levels found in excretions and the levels measured in the blood, you will find a WHOLE lot of ethylmercury missing.
So anyone who repeats the canard that ethylmercury doesn't accumulate in the body in the same way as other mercury compounds hasn't read the original literature and is only parroting medical propaganda.
(ETA: It's been years since I've read the study myself, so if there are small errors in the above summary, I apologize. The gist remains the same.)
-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:This statement is mostly based on a study by Michael Pichichero, where he compared ethylmercury levels from Day 1 to Day 21 after vaccination and found that blood ethylmercury levels fell rapidly. He concluded ethylmercury is excreted and eliminated from the body fast.
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Ethylmercury also does not accumulate in the body that way elemental mercury or other mercury compounds can.
Problem with that? The blood samples from Day 1 through Day 21 came from 21 different children.
And the obvious whitewashing of the fact that just because it isn't in the blood doesn't mean it is outside of the body. If you compare the levels found in excretions and the levels measured in the blood, you will find a WHOLE lot of ethylmercury missing.
So anyone who repeats the canard that ethylmercury doesn't accumulate in the body in the same way as other mercury compounds hasn't read the original literature and is only parroting medical propaganda.
(ETA: It's been years since I've read the study myself, so if there are small errors in the above summary, I apologize. The gist remains the same.)
You missed the link I posted with does more then test the blood and found that ethylmercury is eliminated from the body. So no, that statement is not just based on a single study.
Then you also have the link that Magonsdaughter posted which points out how the amount of mercury contained in a vaccine containing thiomersal is so much smaller then exposes from other sources it is very near irrelevant.
I also love how you will lable literature from the medical community as propaganda yet will believe articles from website with little in the way of medical or scientific knowledge. Good job!
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And the downside OF vaccinating...
Can be exactly the same.
Did you not even READ those articles about vaccine-caused polio outbreaks, before jerking the knee ?
That seems almost a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't, and those people, hell, ANY people, deserve better fekkin options than that.
We CAN do better, we SHOULD do better, and we don't, cause it's not profitable.
Sometimes accedents and mistakes are just that.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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Hello,
Upon further researching the polio vaccine, I found this disturbing news:
Quote:
A major concern about the oral polio vaccine (OPV) is its known ability to revert to a form that can achieve neurological infection and cause paralysis.[37] Clinical disease, including paralysis, caused by vaccine-derived poliovirus (VDPV) is indistinguishable from that caused by wild polioviruses.[38] This is believed to be a rare event, but outbreaks of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) have been reported, and tend to occur in areas of low coverage by OPV, presumably because the OPV is itself protective against the related outbreak strain.[39][40]
Doses of oral polio vaccine are added to sugar cubes for use in a 1967 vaccination campaign in Bonn, Germany
As the incidence of wild polio diminishes, nations transition from use of the oral vaccine back to the injected vaccine because the direct risk of iatrogenic polio (VAPP) due to OPV outweighs the indirect benefit of immunization via subclinical transmission of OPV. When IPV is used, reversion is not possible but there remains a small risk of clinical infection upon exposure to reverted OPV or wild polio virus. Following the widespread use of polio vaccines in the mid-1950s, the incidence of poliomyelitis declined rapidly in many industrialized countries. The use of OPV was discontinued in the United States in 2000 and in 2004 in the UK, but it continues to be used around the globe.[16][29]
The rate of vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) varies by region but is generally about 1 case per 750,000 vaccine recipients.[41] VAPP is more likely to occur in adults than in children. In immunodeficient children, the risk of VAPP is almost 7,000 times higher, particularly for persons with B-lymphocyte disorders (e.g., agammaglobulinemia and hypogammaglobulinemia), which reduce the synthesis of protective antibodies.[38] The World Health Organization considers the benefits of vaccination to far outweigh the risk of vaccine derived polio. Outbreaks of vaccine derived polio have been stopped by multiple rounds of high-quality vaccination, in order to immunize the entire population.[42]
Outbreaks of VAPP occurred independently in Belarus (1965–66), Canada (1966–68), Egypt (1983–1993), Hispaniola (2000–2001), Philippines (2001), Madagascar (2001–2002),[43] and in Haiti (2002), where political strife and poverty have interfered with vaccination efforts.[44] In 2006 an outbreak of vaccine-derived poliovirus occurred in China.[45] Cases have been reported from Cambodia (2005–2006), Myanmar (2006–2007), Iran (1995, 2005–2007), Syria, Kuwait and Egypt.[46] Since 2005, The World Health Organization has been tracking vaccine-caused polio in northern Nigeria caused by a mutation in live oral polio vaccines.[47]
I imagine such things do not spawn any kind of comfort with the vaccines in question- the preferred vaccines in polio prone areas.
--Anthony
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"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner
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Frem and AnthonyT
"And the downside OF vaccinating... Can be exactly the same."
But the vast majority of the time is not. In fact, it provides a great overall benefit.
"Very rarely, vaccine-derived poliovirus can cause paralysis. Vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis (VAPP) occurs in an estimated 1 in 2.7 million children receiving their first dose of oral polio vaccine. ...
Between 2000 and 2009 – a period in which nearly 10 billion doses of oral polio vaccine were given worldwide – 14 cVDPV outbreaks occurred, resulting in 428 polio cases. In the same period, wild poliovirus paralysed nearly 14 000 children."
If it were up to me, I'd do things differently. I'd start with purified virus (or bacteria) bits for any vaccination series. I'd move on to killed whole (except for pertussis where generic cellular bits seem to be an issue). Then I'd move on to live attenuated. But logistically in some cases it simply can't be done. Many people who are the focus of vaccination programs are of no fixed address - they are nomadic or semi-nomadic. Aside from putting RFIDs in them - which I wouldn't want - there is no way I can think of to track them and make sure they get their vaccinations in sequence and on time, no matter how much money and how many resources are spent.
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Now THIS is a concept I have difficulty with:
http://www.biosciencetechnology.com/News/FeedsAP/2011/11/hope-for-new-
aids-protection-seen-in-mouse-study/?et_cid=2352669&et_rid=290281413&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.biosciencetechnology.com%2fNews%2fFeedsAP%2f2011%2f11%2fhope-for-new-aids-protection-seen-in-mouse-study%2f
Hope for new AIDS protection seen in mouse study
The new study involved injecting mice with a protective gene, an idea that's been tested against HIV infection in animals for a decade.
A traditional vaccine works by masquerading as a germ, training the body's immune system to build specific defenses in case the real germ shows up. Those defenses are generally antibodies, which are proteins in the blood that have just the right shape to grab onto parts of an invading virus. Once that happens, the virus can't establish a lasting infection and is cleared from the body.
Scientists have identified antibodies that neutralize a wide range of HIV strains, but they've had trouble getting people's immune systems to create those antibodies with a vaccine.
The gene-injection goal is straightforward. Rather than trying to train a person's immune system to devise effective antibodies, why not just give a person genes for those proteins? The genes can slip into cells in muscle or some other tissue and make them pump out lots of the antibodies.
Dr. Harris Goldstein, director of the Einstein-Montefiore Center for AIDS Research in New York, who has done similar research in mice, called Baltimore's result a significant advance if it works in humans because it shows a single injection produces high levels of antibodies for a long time.
It might lead not only to preventing infection, but also a treatment for infected people, he said. If it allowed people with HIV to stop or reduce their medications even for temporary periods, they could avoid the inconvenience and side effects of the drugs, he said.
If it works as a therapy, I think it would be great. HIV is a retrovirus, which means it permanently inserts itself into human DNA. Doing genetic engineering on people who have already been virally genetically engineered seems reasonable (assuming its done with consent as a medical procedure). But I have problems with genetically engineering humans prophylactically.
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"I wonder why it suddenly became a problem in the modern era. I also wonder if we shouldn't invest more money into helping people to not eat and drink excrement."
Just a few interesting asides - polio also infects and paralyzes other great apes.
As for why it's a problem now I have no idea. If I were to speculate with absolutely nothing to back it up, I'd wonder if it may have to do with human population density, where there are too many people and not enough time or space for the land and water to clear themselves of the viral burden before the next batch of humans comes in contact with it.
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1kiki: A possible immediate and dangerous problem I can see is that I don't imagine there's much way to control antibody production if all the cells in the human body are doing building antibodies and the modified cells can't turn it off.
It's like genetically modifying yourself a case of leukemia. Some doctors HAVE actually been considering it as a treatment for people who already HAVE AIDs, but as you noticed, it's probably not the best idea to do as a preventative.
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Quote:Just because I link to a website doesn't mean I believe those articles. Or that I believe every word in those articles. Propaganda is everywhere, on both sides. One has to intelligently and judiciously sift out little bits of truth from all sources.
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I also love how you will lable literature from the medical community as propaganda yet will believe articles from website with little in the way of medical or scientific knowledge.
I believe empirical evidence.
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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So my Son 'developed' Type 1 diabetes.
No genetic predisposition in the family.
What was he exposed to the Wife & I weren't?
Two things: Milk (he drinks hormone-free) & vaccinations.
Diabetes is on the rise in more well-to-do areas (where it's more likely everyone 'has their shots').
It's on the rise in cold areas (where peeps are more likely vaccinated for 'cold season').
And after he was diagnosed it was advised he get a flu shot to avoid getting it, which he PROMPTLY did a few weeks later.
My conclusion? Vaccinations are a scam. A dangerous one. Some peeps die, others get autism, etc.
Also, diabetes began its sharp incline in the early eighties, like, you know, AIDS.
We make our own plagues now, no need for fleas & ticks.
Where are you Signy, I need your comments...
Very sorry to hear Chris. I know you are not loving science right now but it's not all bad and as I have witnessed in my own family they are doing some amazing things, care and treatment really does advance.
By the way, did you know these folks have diabetes?
Halle Berry
Mary Tyler Moore
James Doohan
Larry King
Ernest Hemingway
Anne Rice
H. G. Wells
Sonia Sotomayor - yes, a Justice on the United States Supreme Court
Gary Hall Jr. - Olympian swimmer
Halle Berry (she gets mentioned twice 'cuz we like Halle).
I hope when you get some distance from the initial shock you'll start seeing some better news.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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Thanks, Piz!!! Good to see success stories!!!
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I believe empirical evidence.
If that was true you would not have started this thread.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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Quote:Snicker. I am flattered. I love being mistaken for Chris.
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
If that was true you would not have started this thread.
Hey guys, I'm gonna back off from FFF again. The more time I spend here, the more catty and snarky I become. Sorry about that. Y'all are both a good and bad influence on me. What to do, right?
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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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Quote:The other study is slightly better, but not by much. Here is the monkey study.
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
You missed the link I posted with does more then test the blood and found that ethylmercury is eliminated from the body. So no, that statement is not just based on a single study.
http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info
:doi/10.1289/ehp.7712
The study would have been more convincing had they done the following. I understand why they did what they did, but I disagree it was the strongest they could have done, science-wise.
1. Assigned the monkeys randomly instead of semirandomly.
2. Administered both the methylmercury and the ethylmercury via the same means, instead of methyl via mouth and ethyl via IM injection.
3. Measured Hg levels in urine and feces. If it's not in the brain, not in the blood, and THEN not in the excrement, we must believe the Hg may be accumulating elsewhere in the body. A good pharmokinetic study would have measured excretion for sure.
4. Other things a good pharmokinetic study would have measured may include injection site, saliva, cerebrospinal fluid, kidneys, liver, etc.
Finally, a question not of science but of human decency. First watch this video about what mercury does to the brain.
If your kid had to be one of these monkeys, would you rather he be in the ethylmercury group, the methylmercury group, or or the control group receiving no mercury at all?
Ultimately, it doesn't matter if ethylmercury is excreted faster than methylmercury or not. It is still fucking mercury and shouldn't be injected into children to begin with!
And that is the bottom line in this debate. Ethylmercury, no matter how differently it is processed than methylmercury, is still mercury.
OK, NOW I'm leaving.
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Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)
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"Ethylmercury, no matter how differently it is processed than methylmercury, is still mercury."
That's a bit like saying 'I don't care if it's cyanide or an amino acid, it's still nitrogen'. I don't think I have read anything so closed-minded, dogmatic and ignorant recently that didn't come from little Rappy or Wulf.
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Chris, I have not had the time to read all the way through the thread, but your reasoning is very flawed.
But first, let me get to the vaccine and autism link: Autism begins IN UTERO. It is there before the child is even born. Vaccinations have nothing to do with it, no matter what CTS says.
AFA "diabetes" increasing, there is a huge difference between Type II diabetes, which is definitely increasing, and Type I diabetes. There are many possible causes for Type I diabetes. it appears to be an autoimmune attack on insulin-producing cells. Usually what happens is that the immune system reacts to ONE thing, then cross-reacts with something in the body. It could be triggered by a virus, it could be triggered by a specific allergy, it MIGHT be triggered by vaccination, it could be promoted by a defect in the immune system itself (inability to weed out misbehaving cells). For all I know, it is caused by lack of sunshine, which allows old and cranky white blood cells to persist on the linings of peripheral blood vessels. I would be willing to bet you a rather large amount of money that when the cause of Type I diabetes IS found, it will NOT be vaccination.
Why do I think this??? Because Type I diabetes has been around as long as humans. There are descriptions of it in ancient Greek medical texts... long before vaccines were ever invented.
I will do some research and tell you what I've found.
IN the meantime, let me tell you that I work with a guy who has Type I diabetes, and has had since he was about 10. He has to be disciplined with his diet and medication, but yanno what? He's doing great... just recently got promoted to group leader, in fact. And treatment options are getting better and better, including implantable pumps which meter out a little insulin all the time.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
The other study is slightly better, but not by much. Here is the monkey study.
http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info
:doi/10.1289/ehp.7712
The study would have been more convincing had they done the following. I understand why they did what they did, but I disagree it was the strongest they could have done, science-wise.
1. Assigned the monkeys randomly instead of semirandomly.
2. Administered both the methylmercury and the ethylmercury via the same means, instead of methyl via mouth and ethyl via IM injection.
3. Measured Hg levels in urine and feces. If it's not in the brain, not in the blood, and THEN not in the excrement, we must believe the Hg may be accumulating elsewhere in the body. A good pharmokinetic study would have measured excretion for sure.
4. Other things a good pharmokinetic study would have measured may include injection site, saliva, cerebrospinal fluid, kidneys, liver, etc.
1. That is explained. "Infants were assigned to the three groups on a semirandom basis, in order to balance sex ratios and average birth weights across groups."
2. The study was looking at the difference between the two mercury compounds and how they are normally taken in to the body.
3. The study was specificly looking the brain because as you point out with your video that is where the major problems with mercury occur. It was a narrow study, which are what you use when looking at specfic things.
4. Again, see above.
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Ultimately, it doesn't matter if ethylmercury is excreted faster than methylmercury or not. It is still fucking mercury and shouldn't be injected into children to begin with!
And that is the bottom line in this debate. Ethylmercury, no matter how differently it is processed than methylmercury, is still mercury.
OK, NOW I'm leaving.
It's nice that read at least part of the study to try and find flaws. It would have been better if you read the entire study and looked at what they found.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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