FIREFLY COMING BACK??

POSTED BY: jp826
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 19:11
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BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:41 PM

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Yet in the comic he is referred to a Officer Book, and is clearly not that high up on the chain of command.

He's at least an Admiral, judging from what we see of his duties. You don't exactly get to the point where you're managing multiple carriers (ships IN ships) in a task group and not have a high rank.

He was being chewed out by the Fleet Admiral. It's like a general being chewed out by the five-star general.

I mean, Patton was only a three star general when he slapped a guy and it almost ended his career. This isn't at all out of the range of possibility.

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The comic just felt like Charle Brown trying to kick the football.

Well, yeah. The series is about the struggles of people living hand-to-mouth and desperate. Not about a bunch of people who make it rich and move to Beverly Hills.

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Oh Mal is far from infallible. I don't see him being that selfish, at least not to the point of allowing all the money being taken and leaving his crew in a position of being adrift which would lead to the very thing he fears.

I know this was to Zeek, but I wanted to say again, I honestly don't think he could have made any other choice and gotten everyone out of that alive. It had unforeseen consequences down the line, yes, but I see Mal's guilt, and Inara calling him on it, as more a matter of Mal's own unrealistic expectations on himself.

M52NICKERSON

Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:54 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:He's at least an Admiral. You don't exactly get to the point where you're managing multiple carriers (ships IN ships) in a task group and not have a high rank.

He was being chewed out by the Fleet Admiral. It's like a four star general being chewed out by a five-star general.

I mean, Patton was only a three star general when he slapped a guy and it almost ended his career. This isn't at all out of the range of possibility.

Your bringing up Patton, a man that we have all heard about. If Book was that high up, and known by that name, I find it hard to believe that one the secret of his failure could be kept, and two no one on Serenity would have heard of him.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:Well, yeah. The series is about the struggles of people living hand-to-mouth and desperate. Not about a bunch of people who make it rich and move to Beverly Hills.

So why write stories that gives the characters so much only to take it away over and over? It seemed that Joss was very much willing to let the crew "win" but then just take that away. When we see other time that crew does the job and earns just enough to continue getting by. We see that in both the series and the numerous fanfics.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

M52NICKERSON

Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:56 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I know this was to Zeek, but I wanted to say again, I honestly don't think he could have made any other choice and gotten everyone out of that alive. It had unforeseen consequences down the line, yes, but I see Mal's guilt, and Inara calling him on it, as more a matter of Mal's own unrealistic expectations on himself.

I never got that from the story, I may have to go back a read it again as see if can find that.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:43 PM

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Your bringing up Patton, a man that we have all heard about. If Book was that high up, and known by that name, I find it hard to believe that one the secret of his failure could be kept, and two no one on Serenity would have heard of him.

He was that high up because he wouldn't have been commanding multiple cruisers and carriers if he wasn't.

It looks to me like this all happened fairly near the beginning of the war, making him easily forgotten by everyone except those who were most impacted by him and historians. I also think just being a former admiral alone would be enough to get the reaction we saw in Safe, provided that information was readily available on his ident-card.

Perhaps something interesting about Book's story, he was discharged early enough in the war that the Alliance considered any lose of life to the Independent force rabble a huge embarrassment. And yet we know for a fact that later in the war both sides were probably racking up casualties in the millions in single battles, yet probably none of those Alliance officers were reprimanded. Look at the Battle of Sturges, MANY cruisers compared to Book losing just one.

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So why write stories that gives the characters so much only to take it away over and over? It seemed that Joss was very much willing to let the crew "win" but then just take that away.

It's kind of justified in series, though. Anyone carrying cargo or holding a lot of money just makes themselves a bigger target for other thieves and scavengers.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:51 PM

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I never got that from the story, I may have to go back a read it again as see if can find that.

You kinda have to read between the lines to see it. The accusation Inara makes is much more overt, and Mal reacts with guilt because he feels like he let his crew down. But then Mal often feels like he's letting his crew down, so that's not really anything new.

If you look close, you notice all kinds of things that suggest special ops or no, Sanda wasn't on the up and up and he's also kind of ruthless. He's willing to force confessions and turn anyone in, guilty or not, if he can get a good reward off it. And once you put that together, the danger to the crew and not just to Mal becomes a bit more serious.

It's actually a lucky thing Sanda did take the bribe and leave, because if you think about it, he could have very easily arrested everyone who showed up with Zoe for the exchange, especially if he thought they might be trying to trick him and after they tried to shoot him. I kind of think that might have been his plan all along, and he might have still been planning to do that even after Mal promised some bribe money. Reward money AND bribe money. But then they were interrupted and Sanda decided to let them go after they fought off the robots.

So that suggests that Mal's just being hard on himself at the end again. And it's not like Mal could possibly know that bribing Sanda would doom Wash and Book, all he knows is that he's got to do something to try to save Zoe and the rest of the crew before they try to go off to his rescue.

M52NICKERSON

Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:14 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
He was that high up because he wouldn't have been commanding multiple cruisers and carriers if he wasn't.

It looks to me like this all happened fairly near the beginning of the war, making him easily forgotten by everyone except those who were most impacted by him and historians. I also think just being a former admiral alone would be enough to get the reaction we saw in Safe, provided that information was readily available on his ident-card.

Perhaps something interesting about Book's story, he was discharged early enough in the war that the Alliance considered any lose of life to the Independent force rabble a huge embarrassment. And yet we know for a fact that later in the war both sides were probably racking up casualties in the millions in single battles, yet probably none of those Alliance officers were reprimanded. Look at the Battle of Sturges, MANY cruisers compared to Book losing just one.

Even if later eclipsed in number, it still would have been remembered as the first real loss by the Alliance. That and it still does not make sense to cover it up just to give Book a good name, and then eject him from the military. The only reason to cover it up would be if they wanted to propagandize Book as a hero.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
It's kind of justified in series, though. Anyone carrying cargo or holding a lot of money just makes themselves a bigger target for other thieves and scavengers.

Yes, but why use that as a story element when it is not needed? You could have revealed Zoe's involvement in the Devils a number of other ways. The main plot was, make the crew rich, and then take it away. It seems that it is just this though that they had to make out big damn hero's into bigger damn hero's.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:You kinda have to read between the lines to see it. The accusation Inara makes is much more overt, and Mal reacts with guilt because he feels like he let his crew down. But then Mal often feels like he's letting his crew down, so that's not really anything new.

If you look close, you notice all kinds of things that suggest special ops or no, Sanda wasn't on the up and up and he's also kind of ruthless. He's willing to force confessions and turn anyone in, guilty or not, if he can get a good reward off it. And once you put that together, the danger to the crew and not just to Mal becomes a bit more serious.

Which then itself suggests that Mal's just being hard on himself at the end again. And it's not like Mal could possibly know that bribing Sanda would doom Wash and Book, all he knows is that not bribing Sanda will probably doom Zoe (who will go after Mal) and likely the rest of his crew as well.

That just seems to raise the question, why let Mal and the crew go? It would be better for Sanda if they where dead. He could claim they were killed as he tried to apprend them, and he and his crew would have the money without any witnesses.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:31 PM

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Even if later eclipsed in number, it still would have been remembered as the first real loss by the Alliance. That and it still does not make sense to cover it up just to give Book a good name, and then eject him from the military. The only reason to cover it up would be if they wanted to propagandize Book as a hero.

Not necessarily, remember, this is the proud and mighty Alliance. They don't want their population even thinking failure is a possibility. They want their population thinking that the rim and border worlds welcomed them with open arms after minimal fighting from local yahoos and corrupt magistrates. And then, of course, it doesn't turn out that way.

Eventually there's too much fighting and dying to cover up, and the Alliance has to try to make another spin on it to make the war publicly acceptable. But by then the covered up first loss of the Alliance would have been forgotten by everyone except those involved or affected by it. People would be far more aware of the bigger losses that the Alliance couldn't hide.

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The main plot was, make the crew rich, and then take it away.

The reason for the story was an excuse to get the crew talking about their wants and fears. It's a character insight piece with some action on the side.

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That just seems to raise the question, why let Mal and the crew go? It would be better for Sanda if they where dead. He could claim they were killed as he tried to apprend them, and he and his crew would have the money without any witnesses.

Yeah, I added a paragraph about that above. I think he doesn't want to kill them because he initially went after them for a reward, it would make sense of why the bribe works.

There's a LOT about that exchange scene that doesn't make sense unless you factor in that both sides were trying to play each other (and we know the crew of Serenity were trying because they had Jayne up on the hill about to shoot Sanda). What changes how it goes is the interruption and after that Sanda decides to just take the bribe. He doesn't want to put up with more robots and crazy revenge people after the crew while he escorts them off to trial.

As for why not kill them after he's decided not to bother with the reward, harder to say, maybe he decided he was outgunned when all the crew showed up, maybe he decided it wasn't worth it, maybe he's the only corrupt one and the other soldiers with him would question the killing, maybe he felt like he owed the crew for saving himself and his soldiers but wasn't above stealing their money (or stole it because Wash decided to punch him and call it even). Maybe he'd have to answer too many questions or do too much paperwork. There's lots of possibilities of why, all we know is what happened, and it appears to me that Mal's bribe is ultimately what mollified Sanda.

M52NICKERSON

Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:57 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:Not necessarily, remember, this is the proud and mighty Alliance. They don't want their population even thinking failure is a possibility. They want their population thinking that the rim and border worlds welcomed them with open arms after minimal fighting from local yahoos and corrupt magistrates. And then, of course, it doesn't turn out that way.

Eventually there's too much fighting and dying to cover up, and the Alliance has to try to make another spin on it to make the war publicly acceptable. But by then the covered up first loss of the Alliance would have been forgotten by everyone except those involved or affected by it.

Then why leave Book alive at all? Just as easy to kill him, that way he can't resurface. Even later when the war loses can't be hide, he could be held up as a hero the died in the war.

The other problem is that fact that those who did know of the loss and Books part would be many.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:The reason for the story was an excuse to get the crew talking about their wants and fears. It's a character insight piece with some action on the side.

...and I think there are better way to get those insights. Hell even the possibility of a huge amount of money could do that.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:Yeah, I added a paragraph about that above. I think he doesn't want to kill them because he wants a reward, it would make sense of why the bribe works.

There's a LOT about that exchange scene that doesn't make sense unless you factor in that both sides were trying to play each other (and we know the crew of Serenity were trying because they had Jayne up on the hill about to shoot Sanda). What changes how it goes is the interruption and after that Sanda decides to just take the bribe. He doesn't want to put up with more robots and crazy revenge people after the crew while he escorts them off to trial.

Once he gets the money, the bribe, and realises the taking these people to trial would be dangerous, he still could kill them. In fact that makes more sense because now he does not have people who know he has the money and know that he is dirty. Knowledge is power.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

ZEEK

Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:02 PM

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
So why write stories that gives the characters so much only to take it away over and over? It seemed that Joss was very much willing to let the crew "win" but then just take that away. When we see other time that crew does the job and earns just enough to continue getting by. We see that in both the series and the numerous fanfics

I think that's just the kind of stories Joss likes to write. Every time he gives his characters what they want, any time they experience happiness, then it's time to look out. Joss is going to bring the hammer down on them. It's just how he operates.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:13 PM

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Then why leave Book alive at all? Just as easy to kill him, that way he can't resurface. Even later when the war loses can't be hide, he could be held up as a hero the died in the war.

They tried to. Remember when they put him into an escape pod and jettisoned him into orbit? Book even points out to them that it's practically a death sentence and begs them to reconsider.

He happened to survive. He was lucky.

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The other problem is that fact that those who did know of the loss and Books part would be many.

Apparently not. Only one person ever actually recognizes him after that battle, and so apparently the only reaction people give when they see his ident-card is that they find out he was a former admiral. When they look up his accomplishments, they confirm he was an admiral, but find nothing else.

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...and I think there are better way to get those insights. Hell even the possibility of a huge amount of money could do that.

That's kind of what it was, only the POSSIBILITY of money. I mean, no one thought that the crew would actually get to KEEP the money except the crew, right? It would contradict the events of the movie that comes afterward in the timeline, in which they're all together and dirt poor.

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Once he gets the money, the bribe, and realises the taking these people to trial would be dangerous, he still could kill them. In fact that makes more sense because now he does not have people who know he has the money and know that he is dirty. Knowledge is power.

Made another edit, I'll quote it.

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As for why not kill them after he's decided not to bother with the reward, harder to say, maybe he decided he was outgunned when all the crew showed up, maybe he decided it wasn't worth it, maybe he's the only corrupt one and the other soldiers with him would question the killing, maybe he felt like he owed the crew for saving himself and his soldiers but wasn't above stealing their money (or stole it because Wash decided to punch him and call it even). Maybe he'd have to answer too many questions or do too much paperwork. There's lots of possibilities of why, all we know is what happened, and it appears to me that Mal's bribe is ultimately what mollified Sanda.

As for knowledge is power, Sanda probably figures the crew won't go to the authorities because the authorities would just try to arrest them as well. Plus, who are most officials going to believe, people with a criminal record or government special ops?

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