FIREFLY COMING BACK??
POSTED BY: jp826
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 19:11
VIEWED: 23973
PAGE 5 of 8
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I've learned to allow for people ignoring canon, but I don't understand why people are so dismissive of the comic books, or even the movie.
Joss worked on them, or in the later comic books directed another Whedon in work on them, that's good enough for me to consider it official.
For me the comics just do not live up to the series nor the movie. Mainly because I think the story lines were weak. Shepard’s Tale made little sense when you look at the reaction of the Alliance soldiers in Safe, or all his knowledge of crime and how an Operative would work.
Better days, I find silly that the crew would gain all this wealth then have it conveniently stolen from them to make them poor again.
Those left behind again I find silly, Dobson...really...I mean really.
In the end just because the creator of the show worked on or even wrote stories does not mean much to me. For me it is all about content.
I think is also shows that some writers are much better when they have limits they have to work within. The comic stories did not have limits and ended up being worse stories. Just as Lucas had virtually no limits with the three newest Star Wars movies and they were no where near as good as the first three.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
For me the comics just do not live up to the series nor the movie. Mainly because I think the story lines were weak. Shepard’s Tale made little sense when you look at the reaction of the Alliance soldiers in Safe, or all his knowledge of crime and how an Operative would work.
How so? It's implied that they let Book slither away and kept his role quiet in the disaster he organized. So, most likely he's somewhat of a legend in the alliance. Some great general who mysteriously retired.
He was also a member of a shady group of rebels. I'd imagine there's some crime knowledge from all of that.
He was also fairly high up in the alliance. So, why shouldn't he know about operatives? The doctor in Serenity seemed to know about them just fine.
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Better days, I find silly that the crew would gain all this wealth then have it conveniently stolen from them to make them poor again.
It's not convenient. Mal betrayed everyone to the thieves. Everyone's fantasy involved leaving the ship. Mal didn't want to lose his tight nit family. So, he got rid of the money.
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EB: Well, I don't really mind people deciding they want to exclude some things. If some people want to say they'd prefer it if the movie didn't happen, and write stories in that version of the verse, that's their prerogative. I even read a number of those. Or if they want to believe some interpretation that I think is contradicted by the evidence, that's up to them too. If I didn't, I'd probably get into a lot more ship to ship combat than I do (or at least, I get into less than I USED to).
But I guess I still expect people to recognize that everyone has their own interpretation of things, and that ultimately interpretations are different from what is official. I like to see a little bit of respect, if grudging, for stuff that Joss and the Whedons and other show writers have worked on, even if fans then ignore all that in their own interpretation, because it's a lot of hard work that goes into this stuff.
I get that people will have their own reasons for not using or ignoring things. I imagine I do it myself, much as I try to give precedence to what seems to be inarguable canon, I find myself often surprised that it's not as inarguable as I thought. But for me, part of the fun of writing is taking everything I know, or think I know, even if it seems contradictory, and finding an explanation that reconciles it all.
I suppose I can see hints of the over-the-top-ness you mean in how the comic books are written and drawn. But on the other hand, the two ensemble cast comic books have the crew losing (Those Left Behind, they escape from the Hands of Blue but fail to collect on two jobs; Better Days, they lose their newly found fortune). So it's not like we've changed too much, and gone from scrambles for survival to complete super-heroic victory. Or that we've even changed venues away from ordinary struggles and hard lives and choices.
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I was fine with Shepherd's Tale myself. I know people really wanted Book to be an Operative, in fact I was one of them and I've actually had to change course midstream in my writing to compensate for it. But part of the fun of having new stuff is being quick on your feet.
Quote:
It's not convenient. Mal betrayed everyone to the thieves. Everyone's fantasy involved leaving the ship. Mal didn't want to lose his tight nit family. So, he got rid of the money.
Inara really knows how to hit Mal in his guilt complex, doesn't she?
Although, if we're being fair, which neither Mal or Inara will ever be, Mal didn't actually have too much choice. He was being used as bait against his entire crew, who could all have ended up arrested, tried in a kangaroo court, convicted of guilt by association with Zoe, and stuck on some penitentiary moon. Show me Sanda wasn't corrupt, gave a care about innocent versus guilty, and wouldn't have gone to those lengths without buying some bygones, and then maybe we can talk about Mal nobly sacrificing himself to rot in a cell for twenty years.
But, that comic does have some fascinating insights into what Mal's fears are, which make a lot of sense considering the number of people he lost in the war. I guess losing people and being abandoned is his worst nightmare and it just doesn't get easier.
And it also has some obvious and unfortunate consequences, such as if they'd been able to keep the money and gone their separate ways, there's a good chance Wash and Book wouldn't be dead.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
How so? It's implied that they let Book slither away and kept his role quiet in the disaster he organized. So, most likely he's somewhat of a legend in the alliance. Some great general who mysteriously retired.
He was also a member of a shady group of rebels. I'd imagine there's some crime knowledge from all of that.
He was also fairly high up in the alliance. So, why shouldn't he know about operatives? The doctor in Serenity seemed to know about them just fine.
Book was also recognized in the comic as the person who was responsible for the Alliances losses. So I don't see his failure being that hush-hush.
The doctor only knew after he looked at the Operatives credentials, and was surprised that he did not have a rank or name. The Doctor also had no idea how an Operative worked or he would have tried to run right away.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
It's not convenient. Mal betrayed everyone to the thieves. Everyone's fantasy involved leaving the ship. Mal didn't want to lose his tight nit family. So, he got rid of the money.
...and what does that make Mal then? I understand that Mal would not want to lose people, I agree with that. In him possibly undoing the crews chances to be happy, and in a way that prevents them from keeping at least some of the money, he also puts them right back in the dangers they faced before. Meaning Mal could lose them all the way the Shepard and Wash were lost.
In the end using Mal's fear of losing his family is just part of a way to take the money away and end the story with the crew in the same shape it started in.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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Quote:
Book was also recognized in the comic as the person who was responsible for the Alliances losses. So I don't see his failure being that hush-hush.
Well, that was probably only because the man who attacked him had a brother on the I.A.V. Alexander. The Alliance probably fed him and his family a line, but either he managed to put two and two together anyway, or he blamed the commanding officer (Book) despite whatever tale of heroics was made up about the battle. People in grieving sometimes do that.
Quote:
In him possibly undoing the crews chances to be happy, and in a way that prevents them from keeping at least some of the money, he also puts them right back in the dangers they faced before. Meaning Mal could lose them all the way the Shepard and Wash were lost.
Exactly. It's excellent dramatic irony. And I also stand by my comment that Mal was really in a catch 22.
And besides, who's to say they wouldn't have all decided to have just blown the money and stay on Serenity anyway? We know of at least one other time the crew had a fortune from the novelization of the movie, and that's when they finally sold the Lassiter. They decided to buy an expensive hovermule, upgrade Serenity's engine and do some remodeling.
It's actually rather western. Very few people on the frontier ever made a lot of money, and those who did tended to waste it or lose it very quickly. Story-wise, that kind of thing makes for Of Mice And Men and other American classics.
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Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
How so? It's implied that they let Book slither away and kept his role quiet in the disaster he organized. So, most likely he's somewhat of a legend in the alliance. Some great general who mysteriously retired.
He was also a member of a shady group of rebels. I'd imagine there's some crime knowledge from all of that.
He was also fairly high up in the alliance. So, why shouldn't he know about operatives? The doctor in Serenity seemed to know about them just fine.
Book was also recognized in the comic as the person who was responsible for the Alliances losses. So I don't see his failure being that hush-hush.
The doctor only knew after he looked at the Operatives credentials, and was surprised that he did not have a rank or name. The Doctor also had no idea how an Operative worked or he would have tried to run right away.Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
It's not convenient. Mal betrayed everyone to the thieves. Everyone's fantasy involved leaving the ship. Mal didn't want to lose his tight nit family. So, he got rid of the money.
...and what does that make Mal then? I understand that Mal would not want to lose people, I agree with that. In him possibly undoing the crews chances to be happy, and in a way that prevents them from keeping at least some of the money, he also puts them right back in the dangers they faced before. Meaning Mal could lose them all the way the Shepard and Wash were lost.
In the end using Mal's fear of losing his family is just part of a way to take the money away and end the story with the crew in the same shape it started in.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
The doctor sure seemed to know that "an operative of the parliament" deserved respect. I also don't think operatives are simply assassins. He could have been there for other reasons. So no need for the doctor to be worried until the operative started talking about death.
The man who recognized Book lost his brother on that mission. He could have easily heard that his brother was working for such a famous up and coming general before things went wrong.
Yeah Mal was being a selfish jerk IMO. I think we're supposed to be shocked by how despicable he acted. Mal is not an infallible hero.
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Mal. Bad. In the Latin.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, that was probably only because the man who attacked him had a brother on the I.A.V. Alexander. The Alliance probably fed him and his family a line, but either he managed to put two and two together anyway, or he blamed the commanding officer (Book) despite whatever tale of heroics was made up about the battle. People in grieving sometimes do that.
If Book was that famous we would expect the Captain and or Zoe to have at least heard about him. Even Simon and River might have heard about him in school studing the war. Yet in the comic he is referred to a Officer Book, and is clearly not that high up on the chain of command.
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Exactly. It's excellent dramatic irony. And I also stand by my comment that Mal was really in a catch 22.
And besides, who's to say they wouldn't have all decided to have just blown the money and stay on Serenity anyway? We know of at least one other time the crew had a fortune from the novelization of the movie, and that's when they finally sold the Lassiter. They decided to buy an expensive hovermule, upgrade Serenity's engine and do some remodeling.
It's actually rather western. Very few people on the frontier ever made a lot of money, and those who did tended to waste it or lose it very quickly. Story-wise, that kind of thing makes for Of Mice And Men and other American classics.
Perhaps that is also part of my problem with it. The crew has a big score on Arial. Then it was given up to Niska. Then they had a huge score with the Lassiter, yet could not fence it, and may very well have sold it for much less then it was worth. The comic just felt like Charle Brown trying to kick the football.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
The doctor sure seemed to know that "an operative of the parliament" deserved respect. I also don't think operatives are simply assassins. He could have been there for other reasons. So no need for the doctor to be worried until the operative started talking about death.
The man who recognized Book lost his brother on that mission. He could have easily heard that his brother was working for such a famous up and coming general before things went wrong.
Yeah Mal was being a selfish jerk IMO. I think we're supposed to be shocked by how despicable he acted. Mal is not an infallible hero.
I would think that anybody working for the Parliament would get respect. The Operative may not have just been an assassin, but Mal recognized that he in fact was one on some level or another.
Oh Mal is far from infallible. I don't see him being that selfish, at least not to the point of allowing all the money being taken and leaving his crew in a position of being adrift which would lead to the very thing he fears.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
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