Did Bush lie? It doesn't matter any more.
POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 11, 2023 18:35
VIEWED: 11007
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The Iraqi people are screwed, maybe a little less screwed at the moment than they were a year ago, but screwed nonetheless. And things will be getting much worse before they get better. Particularly if Bush wins the election and we destroy another country or two in the area.
Perhaps true. But it's a majorly defeatist attitude to take. We shouldn't be the country that just loses and takes it. Even the war hawks should be on-board with that.
If we're gonna be in there until it's reached relative stability - relative to say everyplace else with bombs in the region - it's something worth debating uselessly about it. Kerry's already said blatantly that we're staying the course, so it's not like our options include cut'n'run. So let's hit it. Even if we're all doomed.
Use imagination if necessary, don't just assume we have crappy people in charge, or that Dubya will arrest ya. Assume you're in charge. Assume you can issue any order you like, disband or reband or contraband at will. Figure out ramifications, positive and negative, from all parties involved.
C'mon. Firefly's an intelligent show. We're supposed to be an intelligent fanbase. Let's see how really intelligent we are. We'll package it and ship it off as the "Serenity Think Tank Plan for Success in a Doomed Iraq" and see if it gets news coverage before someone thinks twice. We can discuss lesbianism in the 25th century and the morals of the Alliance, we can sure as hell discuss this and produce something thoughtful.
Besides, I wanna prove the Geezer wrong.
Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction
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hahaha!!!
I can give ANY orders??? I like them ground rules. Where's the wine? It always helps brainstorming!
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Originally posted by Radhil:
Now - ignoring the insult, 'cause we can trade 'em all day - that's a far better and far more interesting statement than the one you opened with. And I'd agree, it's a topic well worthy of discussion.
I'm a practical guy. I'd prefer some other discussion with less straw men and less fanatics. It's politics that forces me to be political. Ain't irony grand....
To be honest, I don't think I've seen a serious discussion of how to fix our current problems. Either on fan board or politico comments or even from the supposedly serious campaigns. That's the only reason I haven't participated in one yet.
But if you'd like to lead, feel free. I'll follow. What're your ideas? Let's hash 'em out.
(am I still apathetic now?)
EDIT - Anti minus one.
Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction
Great! Now we've had the ritual exchange of insults and can get down to some interesting discussion. Must observe the rules.
I was gonna start with how we should deal with Muqtada al-Sadr and his Mahdi militia, but checking the news this morning it appears that a decision has already been made to take him down.
The strategy might be interesting to talk about. US forces are going to drive the militia back to their bases at various mosques and shrines in Najaf and Kufa, and then hold them and let the Iraqi National Guard take it from there, thus limiting non-Iraqi presence on holy ground. Apparently any order to move against the mosques will come directly from Allawi.
Think it'll work?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Originally posted by CrevanReaver:
Now if everyone would throw their own personal ideologies away for a second and just look at the facts they would see the honest truth. Bush didn't lie, he was mislead. He had the United Nations, Bill Clinton, Vladimir Putin, George Tenet's CIA, and even the odd behavior of Saddam Hussein telling him that there were WMDs. After so much pressure, he had to believe that Iraq was an imminent threat.
Don't get me wrong. I think going into Iraq, at least the way we did, was a big mistake and I'm pissed off at Bush. But not for lying, instead for quite frankly being gullible.
John Kerry has recently said he still would have voted to go to war with Iraq in October of 2002 even if he knew everything he knows now. That in itself shows Kerry's either a panderer or even more gullible than Bush.
By the way, Al Qaeda probable salivates at the idea of a Nader presidency. He's the worst of three evils.
Click on the website below for a candidate with the right answers!
http://www.badnarik.org
I'll be pulling the Libertarian lever again this year. I really like their 'stop meddling in other people's affairs' approach to the world.
"Martha's polishing the brass on the Titanic, it's all going down man." - Tyler
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I was going to start with defining what we mean by "successful conclusion". Is "Nuke 'em all" a success?
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That wasn't as snide as it sounded. Iraq is the Rorschach test of our politics. If the goal was to ensure ourselves that Iraq had no WMD (as Bush asserted) then we've already succeeded. If the goal was to eliminate Saddam- well, we've succeeded at that too, and any withdrawal that doesn't lead to immediate collapse is a win.
However, some people want to install democracy in Iraq. The first democratic election is our signal of success. Then there are the flavors of democracy- is it secular? Does it protect human right in general and women's rights specifically?
Others want to install 100% free market capitalism. Still others want to see Iraq "prosperous" without necessarily being ideologically pure about how to get there.
Some people want to control Iraq's oil so that "we" can control OPEC. Others (on this board) want to remake to entire Middle East, with Iran next in their sights, so that Israel is safe from attack.
Some people want permanent American bases there to replace the Saudi bases that we are leaving. Others would be happy with creating a nation that is a USA ally, without being too picky about the form of government.
Unless we collectively and individually define our goals, then our ideas will be subject to "mission creep".
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Unless we collectively and individually define our goals, then our ideas will be subject to "mission creep".
Good point. My personal ideal would be to leave Iraq sort of like we left Japan after the occupation following WWII. A stable, somewhat democratic government that can work within the social structures of the people. I think we have a moral obligation to do this, and believe that in general democracies work better than other systems of government.
I realize there are differences in post-war Japan and post-war Iraq, the level of insurgency for instance, but the goal remains the same.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Signym:
Some people want to control Iraq's oil so that "we" can control OPEC.
Who said "We" want to control OPEC? I haven't read any posts that state that. Personally I'm all for an alternative source of energy so we can stop relying on OPEC at all.
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Others (on this board) want to remake to entire Middle East, with Iran next in their sights, so that Israel is safe from attack.
Thats such a jaded pro-arab anti Israeli comment. This has nothing to do with specifically protecting Israel. This has to do with elimianting Extremist Islamafascists and the governments that create and house them. Iran is a prime sponsor of Islamafascism. Saudi Arabia and its "Royalty" as well as it's lazy youth (foreigners have jobs there because the youth feel the jobs are beneath them) will also eventually mutate or be overthrown.
My prediction: Democracy will eventually come to all nations in the world. As will capitalism.
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Some people want permanent American bases there to replace the Saudi bases that we are leaving.
Is anything ever permanent?
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Yes but Saddam was a SECULAR tyrant, which is why we used him against Iran. So obviously your goals extend beyond "fundamentalist" Islamic dictators to include.... who???
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Replying to all here, pick and choose your poisons as you like.
Goals: I'd go mostly with what Geezer said, and Japan is probably the best example of what we've done before. Mostly democratic state in place - you could go farther than that, but let's leave the social and economic engineering to be worked out by said democratic state (which might be a reversal goal - it could be argued we're already doing such engineering *sigh*). Preferably a lenient and secular democracy, but if we end up with a sharia(sp?) fundamentalist gov't, so long as they didn't "enforce" elections with local thugs and have females stoned for face exposure I think I'd take it. Relative security, on a par with other MidEast states in the area, who have the occasional car bomb or natural disaster but generally plod on with uninterrupted lives. My own personal desire for a goal would also be to leave with a decent morale among the Iraqis. Strategically, it's the only way we can make sure the Qaeda goons will move in and set up recruiting stations as soon as we leave. Morally, it's just the right thing to do after the hell we put them through. The rest of you can aim as you like - this'll be what I'm trying for. Higher than sky to aim, but hell, we're crazy anyway.
ConnonFlynn: Don't get distracted. Previous intentions irrelevent. Current intentions irrelevent. Eyes toward the future. Results, not blame.
Al-Sadr: Hell. With Sistani, the only respected Shiite on both sides, now out of the picture, I'm honestly not sure what to do with the guy. Before they started bombing Najaf, I would've made an offer for the merging of his Brigade with the Iraqi army. But I think they tried that tack anyway. If we invade or shell the mosques, we're fucked, that's certain. I don't think the Iraqi Guard yet has the manpower and certainly not the morale, if their previous desertions are any indication, to handle it, so we'd probably have to force the issue. Sadr may be using them and committing blasphemy himself by using them as bases, Allawi might order us in, but no Shiite is gonna give a good damn about any of those things. It'd tip the populace of Iran into wanting open war, and we'd turn what might be a handful of foreign invaders and bombers here and there into a veritable flood. The only thing I can come up with is to take out Sadr, hard and fast, best surgical hit we can come up with even if it means invading one site, and then back off the army bulk so Najaf can cool down and the Brigade can start to disperse without their leader. Maybe pushing in on the mosques will get us close enough to pin his location for such a thing, and we won't have to invade the mosques in full. I'm not smart enough to know if that effect would work too slow or work perfectly, but it's the best course I can see. Sadr won't surrender, and while he's preaching his fire, neither will the Brigade. The Shiites would still be pissed, but the clerics would be distracted while they jockey for position (none of them are as well recognized as Sadr or Sistani, I think), and with a little luck, it might all cool down to a dull simmer before any one of them starts rallying jihad again.
One More Thing: One crazy plan I thunk up is to gut the current government. Iraqis think they're American puppets as it is, and they're probably not wrong. Keep the framework, but set loose the people. Announce elections immediately, security be damned - we held elections in the middle of our Civil War, we can do it here - put it on a three month fast track timetable. Make sure the election boards are staffed locally and quickly and publicly, no Halliburton contracting - corruption would be a problem, but at least it'd be Iraqi corruption, and can be dealt with by those involved. It'd kill a lot of bad attitude the people currently have, I think. Thoughts on this?
Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction
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