Real World Event Discussions

Christian Fundamentalists and the Rise of the Radical Right

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 16, 2025 22:02
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PAGE 13 of 15

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko

This is a good point, especially the last one. You CAN reason with these people, at least sometimes. Or you can at least reason with the people that are in danger of listening to them. And in doing so, you can change the course of history.

A reasoned counter-proposal to Hitler in 1922 might have helped stave off WWII. A reasoned response to Pol Pot might have averted the killing fields. A reasoned response to the Taliban before they started blowing up statues might have avoided 9/11. At any point, we had chances to deal with these people or their followers, but they were deemed too unimportant, not enough of a threat.

I have to disagree. I don't believe you can reason with true extremists. You can't negotiate with someone who believes that they are infallible in their convictions, and you are the anti-christ, the infidel doomed to hell. At best, you can prevent their growth in power so that they are little more than mad voices in a crowd of reasonable ones. Or you can find someone in their camp who is not so hard line. But the true believers, nah, don't waste your breath.

That being said, it's worth noting that extremists more often and not gain popularity in societies which are facing catastrophic conditions, due to economic and/or armed conflict. As long as we have pockets of the world living in dire poverty and in conflict, then we're going to see an increase in such groups.

KWICKO

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:49 PM

Magons, note that I pointed out that if you can't reason with THEM, you can reason with the folks who might LISTEN TO THEM, and cut off their support before they ever really have any power to enact their agenda.

One of the prime tools in that fight is ridicule, because once people are laughing at you, it's really hard to convince them that you're a mighty and fear-inducing great leader.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, July 13, 2011 11:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Magons, note that I pointed out that if you can't reason with THEM, you can reason with the folks who might LISTEN TO THEM, and cut off their support before they ever really have any power to enact their agenda.

One of the prime tools in that fight is ridicule, because once people are laughing at you, it's really hard to convince them that you're a mighty and fear-inducing great leader.

Oh yes, then sorry. I agree.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, July 14, 2011 12:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

We are currently rules by an intellectual elite.

Heh, bit o' irony.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Hey, I have a fifth grade education.

I concur with Happy, and Mike

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, July 14, 2011 12:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I do believe violent extremism is dangerous and and that a bloody 'score card' serves no purpose. Also, extremism need not be religious in nature, and is often far from religious in true motivation.

Yeah, I mentioned that earlier in the thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
For most of em, it has jack shit to do with religion anyway, they're just looking for an EXCUSE to hurt people, a "cause" with which to massage their conscience about the harm they want to do, and any "cause" will do.

Oh, and Mikey ?
Having seen, hell, being on the business end of the fallout and collateral social damage caused by allowing enablers to enable them, by taking their orders, by cheering them on and supporting them no-matter-what, AND seeing point blank how effective "reasoning" with them is, and you know exactly what the hell I mean...
Are you really so sure you wanna pursue a COMPLETELY FAILED STRATEGY here, further attempting to reason and negotiate as the steamroller grinds us to paste ?

Quote:
Let me ask you something. If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?
-Anton Chigurh

Somebody has to say it, might as well be me.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

RIONAEIRE

Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:23 AM

I'm definitely a creationist.

I don't hate you Frem, in fact I think I actually like you. :)

My fairytale would definitely look like the pretends Mary and I play.

There was this young woman who came to Browncoats a few times named Emily. Me and Erica (a pagan) and her were sitting on the steps and she said to me "I used to want to believe in something, then I went to college." I'm glad I don't see her at Browncoats anymore because that really was hideous of her, all hoity toity, I happen to hold a degree too you know. It would actually be funny if Emily read this post, I laugh at you and your aleteism Emily.
Magons' anti intellectual comment reminded me way too much of Emily for comfort. Perhaps Emily will mature and settle down with age.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:54 AM

So you don't believe that we evolved from apes and prior to that we were just bacteria and amino acids sludging around together. Or that the earth is somewhere around 4.5 billion years old, and that the universe is somewhere closer to 17 billion and that it is currently expanding outwards at an increasingly fast speed, or that multitudes of beasts, now extict have wandered this planet over the eons? Because that is some pretty wondrous stuff to my mind. Wondrous AND true. How good is that?

RIONAEIRE

Thursday, July 14, 2011 6:24 AM

We definitely agree that wonderous beasts have roamed the earth in the past. Wonderous ones still do, though I wish we could see the ones that used to be there. Sure the graphics of mastadons and tyranasaurus rex on the discovery channel are pretty cool, I enjoy watching those specials, but I wish we could go back in time and see them for ourselves. Someone would definitely invent time travel in my faerietale, in various forms, it would be great.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NIKI2

Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:24 PM

Byte, I've obviously pissed you off, and believe me, I never meant to. I don't think I applied "ulterior motives" to your words, at least I never thought you had ulterior motives, so maybe I worded things wrong. You wrote "It doesn't affect me because I don't believe what they do." I was trying to say that the author was writing about a particular subset of Christians and their willingness to utilize force in coercing those beliefs on others.

The problem is that this subset shares some beliefs with other Christians; they devolved (in my opinion) from what I guess we'd call "normal" Christianity. You can't talk about one without overlapping somewhat on the other, you can only recognize that he's talking about extreme beliefs which leave no room for doubt and which instill the desire to make the world like them. Which seems to be part of what's gotten him in trouble with some people here. But if you read what he wrote, and use "activist extremists" instead of "fundamentalists", and realize he is talking about them taking their beliefs to extremes, he's definitely not talking about anyone but this one subset of Christianity:

Quote:
Their “closed" belief system provides simple answers to complex political and social problems, but more importantly "activist extremism" provides simplistic answers to ultimate questions of meaning and existence. Simplicity helps their adherents resolve the ultimate “problem” of being human, what Existentialists call angst (or ultimate anxiety). Angst means the consciousness of death--the awareness of being human, of mortality, of non-being. It is comforting to have answers to life’s deepest questions and "activist extremism" provides relief from angst by postulating that there is some form of continued existence in an afterlife after death.

That allows intolerant people who hold their beliefs as the "be all, end all" of reality to feel justified in condemning, persecuting and attempting to gain power to FORCE others.

He could have written about Muslim extremists the same way (and many have); that they believe killing a non-believer will get them into heaven where they get all those nubile virgins, etc. I'm sure many Muslims believe that, many don't, just like Christians, but the ones who believe it TO EXTREMES are willing to be suicide bombers and kill as many non-believers as they can. Can you see what I'm trying to say?

As an atheist, you would actually be one of their main targets. I know you think all this is minor, but I say again that when extremism gains political power, those extremists will try to get power enough to enforce their own belief system. You have only to look at the recent laws making abortion all but impossible for many to see that; whether they believe it or not, many (most?) GOP candidates and elected officials today are willing to use their power to force their beliefs on others by writing laws others have to abide by. They may well be just "playing to the base" to gain power, but once they got that power, they began giving this small subset of Christianity what they wanted.

All I can say is I honestly never thought you had any ulterior motives, just that I'm frustrated at our inability to communicate. The idea of attributing what he's written to all Christians, or even all Fundamentalists, to me misses the point of the article.

As to

Quote:
People believed for almost TWO millenia in this, and people who didn't really believe were forced to act like they did, and YET, knowledge continued.

Magons neglected to mention how many were killed as a result of not behaving the same. Just looking at the Crusades should be horrifying enough. It's a small comparison to say how many die right now because they are forced into "back-room abortions"? How many more will if they get enough power to pass a feder

NIKI2

Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:29 PM

Happy,I'm sorry to see both you and Byte back out of the discussion. You both have very valid voices and it's important to have people who feel differently in the conversation. It's a far cry from the all-too-prevalent snarking a discussion ends up being. we'll have to agree to disagree that the author intentionally stereotyped Fundamentalists tho', I guess. For me, by reading the article I recognize the subset of Christianity of which he is speaking, and I don't expand it to mean all Fundamentalists, or all anything. His descriptions are enough for me to realize right off that he's talking about "activist extremists", people willing to impose their beliefs on others, by law if possible, and to persecute those who don't believe exactly like them, and to use their power to that end. We're already seeing some of that within the Republican party; hard-liners going after members of their own party who are less extreme.

There's no question that extremism is a human problem and that many things can cause it besides religion. Religion however, from my observations, is the one which has more power to move people and create extremism than anything else. It also, in my opinion, is virtually impossible to change. I agree with Mike in that

Quote:
you can at least reason with the people that are in danger of listening to them. And in doing so, you can change the course of history.

The author isn't addressing the extremists themselves. He's addressing people who might not see the danger (yet), or who might believe, as Byte does, that it's not a danger. The fact is that by being complacent and thinking "oh, it's no biggie", we've already allowed them power enough to potentially affect any one of us. If their power increases, sooner or later their actions, the laws they write, might well affect us.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off