Christian Fundamentalists and the Rise of the Radical Right
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 16, 2025 22:02
VIEWED: 9272
PAGE 12 of 15
Again, Niki, this is not taking about extremists if one of the points is about a regularly held and not just Christian belief. There was a deliberate jab in there about belief in the afterlife. It throws into question both what the author defines as extremism, and suggests he defines religious extremists as ALL religious believers.
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There you go. You said it yourself; he's not talking about you or anyone else except those who use their belief in Christianity to condemn others and to try to force others to believe and act like them.
...
I. AM. ATHEIST.
If you can't discuss this without applying ulterior motives to my posts, then I guess I'm done here. I did not finish reading the rest of what you said.
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Frem: This is why I'm not scared of them. What're they going to do, ban microwaves? Sometimes when something gets let out of the bag, it can't be stuffed back in. Science is like that, religion IS powerless to get rid of it.
Let's just see them try. Their rocks against our space ships.
I'm not saying it out of a fear of retaliation thing, I'm saying it out of a "let's stop perpetuating this pointless feud of intolerance" thing. It already shifts back and forth, neither side is strong enough to end the other. So keeping this up only bites all of us in the ass. The only way TO end it is to let it go.
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Originally posted by Bytemite:Quote:
If you believe it despite the scientific evidence, then you are anti intellectual.
No, belief isn't anti-intellectual. Anti-intellectualism in America is when someone grumbles about "intellectual elites" and college grads and all their high-fangled fancy words. Maybe some of these types do this, but you're conflating two different issues.
Compare to anti-intellectualism under Pol-Pot, who believed the entire society should be brought back to agriculture based by any means possible and killed anyone with an education, INCLUDING people who wore glasses because they might have been LITERATE.
The things you guys are worried about are seriously minor.
People believed for almost TWO millenia in this, and people who didn't really believe were forced to act like they did, and YET, knowledge continued.
Thing is, you've kinda pointed out the problem right there in two posts. "Their rocks against our space ships." Yeah, we basically tried that, in Vietnam and again in Afghanistan. We've got all the advanced weaponry in the world, and they have rocks and zealotry. And they won in 'Nam and have held us to a stalemate for nearly a decade already in Afghanistan, with no end in sight.
Pol Pot was pretty much a direct outgrowth of our Vietnam policies and actions, and his anti-intellectualism carried the day at the time.
Give 'em an inch, and they'll take a mile. Or a million lives.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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Well, it's not any one big thing, more like death of a million cuts - when everywhere you turn, all day, every day, you have a belief YOU consider evil, and it's sickass "values", shoved in your face, from every possible direction...
On TOP of folks who make it really clear they want you and yours obliterated, while striving for the power to do just that...
Wouldn't that make you perpetually angry with them, and consider them a persistent, potential threat, especially when they outnumber you a thousand times over ?
I mean, shit like THIS, which just makes me wanna puke.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/12/nbc-pledge-under-god_n_896476
.html
And it's not even the original fucking pledge, which ran "One nation, indivisible" - it's 50's era McCarthyist bullshit which any SANE society would have learned from and tried to avoid, instead of diving headfirst back into it as deep as possible...
But consider from MY perspective what this is, an acknowledgement of government-endorsed religion.
Most folk are so steeped in it, so used to it, they don't even notice - but when every single ONE of those million little things, every way, every day, hits your nerves like a fucking cheese grater....
Oh I know I am less than reasonable about it, but can you really blame me for my hostility, given their intentions for folk like me and the fact that various attempts HAVE been made to carry them out ?
Not to mention, well, stuff like the AoG sponsored Hellcamps, grrrr.
(And on MY tax dime, no less!)
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Originally posted by Bytemite:Quote:
What about when they rewrite legislation specifically aimed at eliminating low-cost healthcare alternatives for lower-income women?
What about when they picket any pharmacy which agrees to sell "Plan B" or the morning after pill, and do so until such a business caves in and removes a legal product from their shelves?
Or when they do everything in their power to hold up approval of such things in the first place?
You missed what I'd consider the more pertinent points about sex ed and stem cell research. Considering that most of the arguments against both are based on erroneous conclusions, I'd say religious objections against availability to the greater public are SOL.
But, as ever, I would support their ability to refuse the services they would disagree with, such as their walking out of sex-ed. You can't force people to participate.
Really, though, sex ed is probably the best long term solution TO people needing abortions, so I'd like to think they might eventually realize that they're shooting themselves in the foot.
So as for their other anti-abortion legislation, no, I don't really support it. Not only do I consider it different degrees from something merely discussed in a classroom, but at the same time I think the stuff that they want to put in the classroom, in some areas, is just going to be discussed anyway. I oppose the one because I think it affects non-Christian populations, I don't bother with the other because I don't think it does.
Good point(s). Yes, people can believe what they want. They just can't FORCE me to believe what they believe, and they shouldn't be able to force me to act according to their beliefs.
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Niki, I have lost patience with this thread, but not because of you. I appreciate you being respectful and I just want to attempt to clarify my position to you.
I realize this article was not meant to apply to me or even my denomination (or more accurately lack there of). However it still intentionally stereotypes Fundamentalist, and and that bothers me. Not all Fundies are out to take over the government and force their views on others.
I do believe violent extremism is dangerous and and that a bloody 'score card' serves no purpose. Also, extremism need not be religious in nature, and is often far from religious in true motivation.
Using the term 'extremist' is at least more appropriate than fundamentalist. I believe that 'extremism' is merely a symptom of a real human problem(s) and am wary of that label as well. I thought Frem had some very good points concerning this, not sure if I've said that yet or not.
Lastly, I think the general notion of 'these groups just can't be reasoned with' is destructive and only adds to the problem.
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Byte,
Intellectual elites hate competition. That's why Saloth Sar, (aka Pol Pot) himself an intellectual elitist, and member of the international intellectual elite (who called him "Political Potential" or "Pol Pot" for his possibility as a world leader.)
Like Mao Tse Dong, intellectual elites think they are smarter than everyone else, and so figure they have nothing to fear but other intellectuals.
We are currently ruled by an intellectual elite. They feed the college masses preprogrammed misinformation to prevent them from challenging the elite, but if they do, they are offered membership in it, which can and does happen, as you know I know.
Vietnam is not Afghanistan. It's a pretty technologically sophisticated society. They didn't take us down with rocks, as you might recall. After all, McCain was shot down by an anti-aircraft (was it 115 mm?) gun, and not a rock.
You can believe in God and science at the same time. I'm skeptical of both ;) But I take the point.
ETA: Skeptical of the superiority of a technological scientific society? See my Chemical Warfare thread.
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
We are currently rules by an intellectual elite.
Heh, bit o' irony.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Niki, I have lost patience with this thread, but not because of you. I appreciate you being respectful and I just want to attempt to clarify my position to you.
I realize this article was not meant to apply to me or even my denomination (or more accurately lack there of). However it still intentionally stereotypes Fundamentalist, and and that bothers me. Not all Fundies are out to take over the government and force their views on others.
I do believe violent extremism is dangerous and and that a bloody 'score card' serves no purpose. Also, extremism need not be religious in nature, and is often far from religious in true motivation.
Using the term 'extremist' is at least more appropriate than fundamentalist. I believe that 'extremism' is merely a symptom of a real human problem(s) and am wary of that label as well. I thought Frem had some very good points concerning this, not sure if I've said that yet or not.
Lastly, I think the general notion of 'these groups just can't be reasoned with' is destructive and only adds to the problem.
This is a good point, especially the last one. You CAN reason with these people, at least sometimes. Or you can at least reason with the people that are in danger of listening to them. And in doing so, you can change the course of history.
A reasoned counter-proposal to Hitler in 1922 might have helped stave off WWII. A reasoned response to Pol Pot might have averted the killing fields. A reasoned response to the Taliban before they started blowing up statues might have avoided 9/11. At any point, we had chances to deal with these people or their followers, but they were deemed too unimportant, not enough of a threat.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
You can believe in God and science at the same time. I'm skeptical of both ;) But I take the point.
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Magons, about the anti-intellectual thing, I tend to disagree. I think faiths and science often go different ways, and it's not about intellect. I find other things more indicative of an anti-intellectual basis among extremists. No particular belief, to me, reflects anti-intellectualism--anti-SCIENCE, perhaps, maybe even ignorance in not having looked into the facts, but not anti-intellect. Some of the things I find representative of anti-intellectualism are the use of "elitist", the "he's someone you'd want to have a beer with" and so many of the other put-downs you hear from the right.
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No, belief isn't anti-intellectual. Anti-intellectualism in America is when someone grumbles about "intellectual elites" and college grads and all their high-fangled fancy words. Maybe some of these types do this, but you're conflating two different issues.
Point(s) taken. I think I mean anti scientific rather than anti-intellectual. Wrong terminology. And again, just to be clear, not saying that religion and science can't mix. Again, peeps, talking about the fundies here, extremists if you insist (although I still haven't seen how fundies don't fit that description). It's people who take the Bible literally, they believe in creationism, they don't believe that dinosaurs walked the earth because they aren't mentioned in the Bible. They believe that we sprung forth from clay, fully evolved who are anti science. And although the ID mob give a bit more lip service to science, possibly because it is hard these days to ignore it completely, they still attempt to mould evidence to fit their beliefs, rather than base their understanding on evidence. which in itself is also anti scientific.
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Compare to anti-intellectualism under Pol-Pot, who believed the entire society should be brought back to agriculture based by any means possible and killed anyone with an education, INCLUDING people who wore glasses because they might have been LITERATE.
The things you guys are worried about are seriously minor.
Geez, Byte, you remind me of my mother. If I ever complained about...well anything, I'd have to hear about all the extreme deprivation undergone by others in the world. You are comparing something to worse case scenario, and of course it can't compare. But that is the point, surely, about forewarning and seeing where extremism can get you.
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People believed for almost TWO millenia in this, and people who didn't really believe were forced to act like they did, and YET, knowledge continued.
yep, and often held up along the way. How many discoveries were hidden away, or destroyed because of fear of retribution? Copernicus, Galileo, Darwin. How many works of creativity have been banned or suppressed. And all because different points of view were felt to be so offensive that they were heretical and because beliefs were so ingrained in canon that they could not be questioned.
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whoops
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