How to win an argument with Liberals-Progressives-Socialists-etc...
POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Thursday, June 16, 2011 09:23
VIEWED: 32999
PAGE 6 of 31
http://www.battlefield315.com/
VERY GOOD website.
"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"
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Well he's back to spamming again...
It's not personal. It's just war.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
HW, for all your "despising" of socialism, you are in fact a socialist. You won't like admitting it, but that's what you are.
Project much?
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
To summarize: (For those who can't or WON'T watch)
Obama had nothing to do with Osama Bin Ladens death..
How do you figure?
And how much credit do you give Bush for Bin Laden's death?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
HW, for all your "despising" of socialism, you are in fact a socialist. You won't like admitting it, but that's what you are.
Project much?
Not at all. I'm just telling you the truth.
Do you support the U.S. military?
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
And leftists have never used the big lie strategy. Oh wait, what was the name of their party? National SOCIALIST party.
Hmm, I think I'm seeing a connection.
Here's a good rebuttal of that position, from the Political Compass's FAQs:Quote:
Why is Hitler slightly right ? The Nazis were socialists, so they weren't fascists either.
Let's start with the second part first. Some respondents confuse Nazism, a political party platform, with fascism, which is a particular structure of government. Fascism legally sanctions the persecution of a particular group within the country - political, ethnic, religious - whatever.
Gays, "illegals", Muslims, those who listen to "radical" speeches...
Quote:
So within Nazism there are elements of fascism, as well as militarism, capitalism, socialism etc.
Not to mention nationalism, known here as "American exceptionalism". (Still waiting for Rappy's definition of that; I asked him yesterday, but he's been dodging the question.)
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To tar all socialists with the national socialist brush is as absurd as citing Bill Gates and Augusto Pinochet in the same breath as examples of free market capitalism.
Economically, Hitler was well to the right of Stalin. Post-war investigations led to a number of revelations about the cosy relationship between German corporations and the Reich.
Not unlike American corporations and the federal government. No-bid contracts come to mind.
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No such scandals subsequently surfaced in Russia, because Stalin had totally squashed the private sector. By contrast, once in power, the Nazis achieved rearmament through deficit spending.
Wait a minute - I think I know this tune! Reagan, Bush... ring any bells?
Quote:
One of our respondents has correctly pointed out that they actively discouraged demand increases because they wanted infrastructure investment. Under the Reich, corporations were largely left to govern themselves, with the incentive that if they kept prices under control, they would be rewarded with government contracts.
Here, we don't really demand that the corporations try to keep prices under control. It's all-you-can-eat time at the hog trough!
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Hardly a socialist economic agenda !
But Nazi corporate ties extended well beyond Germany. It is an extraordinarily little known fact that in 1933 a cabal of Wall Street financiers and industrialists plotted an armed coup against President Roosevelt and the US Constitutional form of government. The coup planners - all of them deeply hostile to socialism - were enthusiastic supporters of German national socialism and Italian fascism.
In other words, they were steadfast rightists like Hardware here.
Quote:
Details of the little publicised Congressional report on the failed coup may be read in 1000 Americans:The Real Rulers of the USA by George Seldes.
Fascism, according to the American Heritage Dictionary (1983) is A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism.
"These Colors Don't Run!" "Love It or Leave It!" "Never Forget!"
Quote:
Italian philosopher Giovanni Gentile's entry in the Encyclopedia Italiana read: Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power. No less an authority on fascism than Mussolini was so pleased with that definition that he later claimed credit for it.
Nevertheless, within certain US circles,the misconception remains that fascism is essentially left wing, and that the Nazis were socialists simply because of the "socialism" in their name. We wonder if respondents who insist on uncritically accepting the Nazis' cynical self-definition would be quite as eager to believe that the German Democratic Republic was democratic.
It would be equally ludicrous to be
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
I cannot abide socialists or communists. I think learning about how the Nazis treated my godparents, and then how they were treated by the communists in Poland shows that there was little difference to the common man. Both are equally reprehensible.
I'm with you, I despise marxism - and all the 'isms' it's spawned (I'm anti-ideological, across the whole spectrum). But blurring together communists and socialists, and social democrats (what the Socialist party of America is?), and then Democrats, is silly. I've heard conservatives don't like nuance, but that's ridiculous.
I think the difference between me and you (besides appreciation for nuance) is that I don't see marxists as something to worry about, or even as something relevant any more (except to people living in Cuba or Venezuela). The cold war has ended. In Europe we now talk about 'post-ideological politics'. In America you're still afraid of communists behind every bush. One of the things that never fails to amaze me about US politics...
It's not personal. It's just war.
The thing you are missing when you deride me for equating all of the leftist isms into one massive clusterfuck of wrong thinking, is this; all of them have one flawed premise at their core. That mistaken point of origin is that someone else is better suited to decide what is best for me.
And that is why I will go to any lengths to oppose them and any person who try to force those ridiculous politics on me.
The cold war may have ended, but those same leftists forces now have new names. Transnationists, humanists, and liberals. I can't imagine that the founders of the democratic party are spinning in their grave over the co-opting of their party by socialists.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Quote:Guess you don't like advertising then. Or investment decisions about where to place a factory or what to produce, and how much to pollute.
That mistaken point of origin is that someone else is better suited to decide what is best for me.
Say, how do you feel about the nuclear power industry deciding what's best for you? Are you ok with that?
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As a matter of fact, I don't like advertising. I expect people to use their land how they see fit. And their own ethics should guide how they do business.
Industry, nuclear power or not, is free to do business as it wants. In the long run ethical business pays greater returns than unethical practices. However, we have a brain dead executive population that cannot seem to grasp that.
For example, Johnson and Johnson, way back during the Tylenol murders could have tried to hush things up. Instead they were open and cooperative with authorities doing the investigations. They took steps to protect the public that would have removed any chance of profit for that year and perhaps several more. Instead, the public perception of them doing business ethically catapulted Tylenol into the lead of the analgesic market and made it one of their most profitable products. Ethical business practices pay huge dividends in the long run.
But, when industry does wrong I expect those executives to be called to account for their actions. Either with money, jail or a loaded weapon and some privacy.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Quote:
Gee, I didn’t know that. I betcha millions and millions of “leftists” didn’t know that either. We must have missed the memo; I’m glad you think you know what we believe, it must make things much more comfortable for you. Doesn't matter that it's not true.
all of them have one flawed premise at their core. That mistaken point of origin is that someone else is better suited to decide what is best for me.Quote:
That is just simply not true. PG&E has been around for decades and will be here for decades to come, and they are about as unethical as it gets. There are many, MANY more examples. Unethical practices pays great returns unless there is something/someone to keep them in check. What Johnson & Johnson did is far outweighed by so MANY other corporations getting away with so MUCH more, and you know it.
In the long run ethical business pays greater returns than unethical practices.
You think the coal industry is ethical? Want some facts? Or do you care?Quote:
I agree, but who’s GONNA? Industry gets away with tons every day, and even with people TRYING to call them to account, more of ‘em get away with stuff than don’t. Our way of calling them to account may be badly flawed, but it’s better than NOTHING.
But, when industry does wrong I expect those executives to be called to account for their actions. Either with money, jail or a loaded weapon and some privacy.
By the way, "someone else is better suited to decide what is best for me" kind of applies to corporations deciding what's best for us; banks, health-care providers, investment speculators, the oil industry...all free enterprises which don't seem to be hindered in deciding what's "best" for us currently. Try explaining how the coal industry has decided what's best for the Applachian people and their environment, please.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off 
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