The Great Jayne Debate!
POSTED BY: kef
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 17:05
VIEWED: 37090
PAGE 12 of 14
I re-watched it a few days ago, trying to see it from the point of view of Jayne "un-betraying". I could see why people thought that, but it didn't fit the onscreen evidence in one very, very crucial way: River's reactions.
Her brain wave activity changed the instant Jayne said, "The plan's changed", and she woke up screaming. To me that seems fairly indicative that she knew Jayne was lying and endangering them.
"They come out of the black. They come when you call them. Your toes are in the sand". If she was reading Jayne trying at that point to rescue them, i.e., that his intentions were good and his conscience clean, her reaction would be wrong. And while River is by her own admission, oft confused, we've never seen her be wrong.
Also, no reason for her to taunt him with the "No presents" metaphor, if in fact, at the time they were taken into custody he had been trying to help them.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The problem with River's lines is that they aren't really evidence; they can't point you to some knowledge you don't already have, they can only point back at what you already knew some other way. Interpretations for her lines can be come up with in any scenario. In this case, it would be that she's reacting to the approach of the agents rather than Jayne, which would even be indicated (somewhat) by the fact that when she talks in that abstract 3rd-person way, she's always talking about something that's NOT in her immediate surroundings at the moment (like with the can labels and going up the down slide). And if she was teasing Jayne, it's about what he has already set in motion coming back to bite him. Or those lines could be connected to nothing we even know about yet. But her lines are never definite and solid enough to be factually informative on their own.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Heehee, isn't this great? I get an answer and the debate continues! You gotta love a show and a character that gets people this riled up!
(Okay, sorry I'm not more thoughtful now, but I'm still giddy.)
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I read somewhere - I do not remember where - that Jayne was only to be in 8 or 9 eps. Has anyone else read that? Maybe Mal has not forgiven him and he will be gone soon - this would break my heart.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
it's according to Jose Molinas a false rumour. he said something to that effect in the "Television Without Pity" interview a few days ago.
Jayne is a normal member of the crew and if he dies it will be a suprise to AB as well as to us.
here's the link to the interview:
http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=95&story=4206&limi
t=&sort=
Idefix
PS: it would really interest me what JW and AB think now, that they told us and there's still people arguing against it.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I'm surprised that everyone is focusing on the later half of the episode, and not the first half. In my opinion, Jayne didn't feel that he was betraying what he considered the "real" crew of Serenity at all. See, I think he made his decision to go against Mal and get rid of the Tams almost immediately after his conversation with Mal in the infirmary. I think sometimes, though Jayne likes and respects Mal, Jayne finds him a little hard to take. Mal is an idealist, he'll do things the hard way if it fits in with his ideals. Jayne is a pragmatist, he doesn't understand idealism and doesn't like it. (He likes Mal, but considers his idealism to be a flaw that he doesn't quite get.)
Normally, if someone sliced open Jayne's chest with a butcher knife, that person would spend the few remaining minutes of their life learning to breath through a crushed windpipe. In this case, Jayne showed restraint. First, he tries to convince Mal to get rid of the Tams, and get the reward in the bargain. Mal rebukes him, he then decides that this is that irrational part of Mal that he can't quite wrap his mind around, and he decides to get rid of them (and get a big payday) secretly the next chance he gets. He probably figured the hospital job was the perfect opportunity.
You see I think in Jayne's mind, River had changed from "someone who might cry out at the wrong time and get us all pinched by the feds" to "someone who might decide that Serenity would be more fun without air and open all the airlocks one night."
I also think that Jayne doesn't really understand the monstrous evil that is at the heart of the Alliance, he probably felt he was turning Simon in to face time in an Alliance jail (probably the equivalent of one of our white collar prisons) and River back to the nuthouse. I don't think very many people inside or outside of the Alliance know about the blue-handed brain melting guys. I don't think many people would believe in them if you told them about them.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Good argument, Tylor! (Especially since I agree. Heehee.)
Now that I'm sane again, I should applaud Queen Tiye for inviting A.B. over here, while I was begging at his feet. Thaks, QT, for having lots and lots of good sense!
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I've watched "Ariel" a few times now, and I simply can't buy Jayne unbetraying the Tams beforehand for several reasons. First, while Simon and Jayne are in the holoimaging center with River, Jayne says that they need to get moving. Simon replies that they still have twenty minutes; Jayne comments that the plan changed and that they're meeting out the back way in five.
At the same moment that Jayne is saying this (and Simon is distracted), the holo-image of River's mind pulses with red -- a strong implication that she just picked up on something from somewhere nearby (likely Jayne), as we have been led to believe that she's some manner of psychic or telepath.
Additionally, if Jayne had meant to protect them from the Feds by his actions, he would've mentioned that there was some rumor or sight of Feds nearby -- certainly not that the Captain had changed the plan (a comment easily disproven if the Tams successfully got back to the ship).
Moreover, River didn't try to take off the other way earlier in the ep -- only after they had been captured, Jayne was informed that he would be deprived of his reward, and the Bluehands were near. She did cower back in the wheelchair inside the corridor leading to the exit before they were captured by the Feds, but that was most likely because she sensed they were out there.
Finally, if Jayne wasn't leading them to capture at a prearranged rendezvous point with the Feds, why wouldn't he have gone straight up to the fake medical floater? The hospital's a big place -- and claiming that the Feds just happened to be in exactly the right spot to intercept the Tams after Jayne told them he would bring them to another spot suggests utterly impractical odds.
Jayne still sold 'em out. Admittedly, he did aid in the breakout -- but that was only after it became clear that his own skin was on the line now and that he would end up with nothing in the way of reward. It makes Jayne's change of heart at the end, having accepted that he will die, and Mal's retraction of the death sentence, all the more poignant.
It'll be interesting to see just how Jayne's character changes from this point on -- whether he moves away from mercenary dealings at least as regards his crewmates.
History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it just shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Double post.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Triple post. Ruttin' computer, ruttin' phone lines, ruttin' ISP... 
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME