About American religions

POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 15, 2026 17:05
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THEHAPPYTRADER

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:30 PM

Quote:
Catholicism in particular allows you to repent on your deathbed and God will absolve you of everything; to me that concept is horrific.

And again, what's so bad about that? Does this hypothetical persons punishment in the afterlife really benefit anyone here on earth or anywhere else? That forgiveness is kinda central to Christianity. Forgiveness is for everyone, not just our favorites, or the ones we feel deserve it, but everyone who repents. Seeing as how none of us really deserve that, who are we to judge who should and shouldn't be absolved?

NIKI2

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:43 PM

Quote:
I have freedom to choose how I act. It is an awesome and terrible freedom, but I've hammered out my morals and do not fear the accounting as long as I don't lose sight of my moral north star.

Quote:
I have no fear of losing my way in the moral wilderness as long as I don't follow another man's path blindly.

MOST excellent, Hardware; I would count you as a "true" believer in whatever faith you follow, as long as those things are true.

My argument is that, for far too many people, they are not. Organized religions, as I said, make it far too easy for those who would do so to give in to the worst of themselves and rationalize it by it being "God's" position, and those who follow what the humans say who supposedly "interpret" the word of God FOR them, and who feel superior to those of other religions as a result of their chosen faith's teachings. AND who hammer others to be "saved"...I've been the victim of that more times than I can count, and it offends me, even tho' I understand what's behind it.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NIKI2

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:52 PM

Ooops, cross-posting.

It's not about what benefits anyone else, it's that I've seen an awful lot of people who are quite happy to think, talk and behave in ways that in no way reflect their faith, and some of them know that, no matter what they do, they'll get absolution by repenting at the last minute. Not the majority, mind you, and some not even consciously, but it's a fact.

It's not about forgiveness in that respect; their being forgiven or not is nothing to anyone else. It's about those who don't feel responsible for their own actions/words, the "out" that gives them. About the harm they do to OTHERS because of that willingness to ignore their "moral compass", or even GET one! How many consider themselves Christian because their parents were, then never give it another thought? For me, that's less true of buddhists because most of us here in American CHOSE to be buddhist, which means we put a lot of thought into it. There are exceptions to everything, of course.

Am I not communicating well? Because the concept that others' actions and absolution has anything to do with ME personally isn't one I was debating; the idea that those I judge worthy of forgiveness are the only ones who should be forgiven also has nothing to do with it. Remember, I'm buddhist--there IS no "forgiveness" except our own RECOGNITION of doing wrong and ACCEPTANCE of ourselves for doing it, then going on to try and do better. Big difference between acceptance and forgiveness.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

THEHAPPYTRADER

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 7:09 PM

Oh, sorry, when you said the concept was horrific I took that as a judgment... that the concept was... horrific, lol

I'm glad you clarified though. Just to be clear, that whole forgiveness and repentance, the idea is a benevolent and omniscient/omnipresent God's going to know if your intentions are true. It's not just 'Hey bro, let me stay at your place, I don't wanna go to hell.' There's somewhat of a commitment to do right and help others on your way.

On the deathbed hypothetical, well... I certainly wouldn't want to play with fire like that, waiting for the last moment to ask for forgiveness. How can you really be sure you'll die slowly enough or with enough advanced notice to seek absolution right? Not to mention how if you believed enough to seek forgiveness you'd probably realize what was wrong with your actions. I don't buy it, if this kind of behavior happens at all it must be exceedingly rare.

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 9:21 PM

Well Hardware, you gotta understand, mocking religion is in a sense PART of my religion.

I am Shadow Vajrayana, Path of Diamond Shield, and this comes with a morality damn near incomprehensible to most westerners - breaking the rules *IS* the rules, what is held most dear is mocked and that which is insignificant is regarded with grave seriousness tho it might be.

Everytime I even TRY to explain it everyone but maybe Anthony and HKCav wind up with this befuddled expression and somewhere between vague unease and total confusion.

So I generally go with trope-shorthand.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScaryAmoralReligion

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

MOCKROMANCER

Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:01 PM

Not one of the religions noted in the wikipedia page are American. Not one. Maybe you should change the title of this post. If not, I can never take anything you post serious. Peace out.

HARDWARE

Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Well Hardware, you gotta understand, mocking religion is in a sense PART of my religion.

I am Shadow Vajrayana, Path of Diamond Shield, and this comes with a morality damn near incomprehensible to most westerners - breaking the rules *IS* the rules, what is held most dear is mocked and that which is insignificant is regarded with grave seriousness tho it might be.

Everytime I even TRY to explain it everyone but maybe Anthony and HKCav wind up with this befuddled expression and somewhere between vague unease and total confusion.

So I generally go with trope-shorthand.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScaryAmoralReligion

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

Sounds a bit like the North American Indian Coyote path.

But mocking something and making fun of it can be questioning the basis of it, or the practice of it. That distinction marks if you are deriding the institution or the people propagating it.

One of them should always be called into question. The other does not suffer for the questioning. But I'll leave it for you to decide which is which.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

RIONAEIRE

Thursday, March 24, 2011 7:08 AM

I think such a survey would be much better if you ask participants to self identify what religeon or bbelief system they follow, that way it will be more precise. Maybe for the really specific ones one should say it more generally, like saying Pagan instead of listing one's preferred deity from days of yore for instance. But that way someone could write atheist or agnostic instead of "unafiliated" which doesn't tell me much.

I don't think one can debunk the atheists in foxwholes theory because everyone will have a different experience when under pressure like that, so sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't.

Happy, I like your thoughts on death bed conversions, why not?

Of course I believe that we shouldn't just wreek havoc and then say, "oh well, God will forgive me", just because he'll do it doesn't mean we should act like that and we shouldn't put him to the test like that, not our place.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, March 24, 2011 2:55 PM

True, many Christians are unaffiliated.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

KWICKO

Thursday, March 24, 2011 10:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

But mocking something and making fun of it can be questioning the basis of it, or the practice of it. That distinction marks if you are deriding the institution or the people propagating it.

Generally, both. But don't get your panties in a wad about it.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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