About American religions
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 15, 2026 17:05
VIEWED: 11273
PAGE 5 of 10
I know what happened. I changed it in my signature when we first "spoke", then forgot to change it in the signature on my PROFILE! So it only worked once. I'll fix that, because yes, I know about all that stuff, Rose, it just took you speaking up before I realized it was this way in v.2. I've had a heckofa time getting myself "moved over" to v.2, hopefully that's the last of it. I'll fix the sig in my profile.
Sorry about that...but I wish others would get it too. When someone sets their post in bold or italic, it carries over for me for the rest of the thread; we need to tell THEM, too. Thanx for letting me know. Let me know if this works, wouldja please?
The foxhole-conversion things is ridiculous...the idea that people suddenly "get religion" in war doesn't cut it for me; do they keep it once the war is over? Isn't that pure selfishness, to suddenly start praying to a god 'cuz you're scared? I've been in some tight spots, never occurred to me to pray to anyone. I would think those who suddenly get religion in foxholes haven't actually changed, they're just scared...there's quite enough of the other kind of fear in religions, I don't know why any real Christians would want converts that way!
Hell, that's a large part of religion anyway, the idea that death is the end, that there's no patriarchal god in charge of everything...fear works great to encourage worshipping something, anything that will take the responsibility away, judge whether we're doing right or wrong and punish or reward, rather than us judging ourselves. I don't buy it.
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off 
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Quote:
The foxhole-conversion things is ridiculous...the idea that people suddenly "get religion" in war doesn't cut it for me; do they keep it once the war is over? Isn't that pure selfishness, to suddenly start praying to a god 'cuz you're scared? I've been in some tight spots, never occurred to me to pray to anyone. I would think those who suddenly get religion in foxholes haven't actually changed, they're just scared...there's quite enough of the other kind of fear in religions, I don't know why any real Christians would want converts that way!
Why not? I find in most tense situations it's good to trust your instincts and is it unreasonable that another's instincts could lead them to a good thing? Should we all judge you for how you found your religion or lack there of? Obviously if it didn't stick after the war is over, then he/she probably never really found it and they were just scared. Also, I'd posit the 'foxhole conversion' is borne more out of fear of bullets and the like than a fear of God.
Christianity is kinda based off of how none of us deserve forgiveness, redemption, eternal life, and so our generous God's made it available to everyone. Not something to be proud of on account of you can't earn it. It's something freely given to all who believe and try their best to do right. There's no shortage of God's love and thus no reason for it to be exclusive. 'Real Christians' aren't picky about where their brother's and sisters came from.
Now, I'm not in any way promoting aggressive proselytizing or conversion via fear (assuming such a conversion is actually real and possible). I'm just saying, however you came across your faith, I'm fine with it and happy for you, so long as you really believe.
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I really believe what I believe, so you must be happy for me! :)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I really believe what I believe, so you must be happy for me! :)
How can I not be when you seem so cheerful?
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How can you people talk about this stuff right smack dab in the middle of Barry throwing us into another war...jeezes com'on
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I think I will let the Men In Hats speak for me.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Actually, while the atheist-foxhole thing has been about as debunked as ever possible, one amusing parallel to it is the Saturday morning hangover and worshipping the round ceramic altar of Bacchus....
And making deals with god, any god, if they'll only get you out of this.
And they don't, right ?
BECAUSE THEY KNOW YOU LIE!!!!
*laughs maniacally*
Sorry, hadda do it.
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Actually, while the atheist-foxhole thing has been about as debunked as ever possible, one amusing parallel to it is the Saturday morning hangover and worshipping the round ceramic altar of Bacchus....
And making deals with god, any god, if they'll only get you out of this.
And they don't, right ?
BECAUSE THEY KNOW YOU LIE!!!!
*laughs maniacally*
Sorry, hadda do it.
-F
Regarding foxhole conversions; all of the stress praying to God never lasted beyond the end of stress. But religion is supposed to help you. If you are judging the worth of that conversion, temporary or not,.. well, I believe the bible does say something about judging others. It is basically a sign of helplessness in a given situation and an appeal to a higher power to save them. I'm totally fine with that. And for all of you who have said foxhole conversions have been debunked, I'd like your sources. If those sources have been in combat or life threatening situations, that would be even better.
Since I've come to grips with my own inevitable fate and made my peace with religion it has given me remarkable freedom.
I'm not trying to convert anyone to anything. Figure it out for yourself. But my opinion is that religion is good. Organized religion is bad. There is only one God and everyone worships God in his or her own way.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Ahhhh, semantics. My belief rather is that FAITH is good; organized religion is bad. IS there such a thing as “unorganized religion”? Quote:
Wiki
The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, but religion differs from private belief in that it has a public aspect. Most religions have organized behaviors, including clerical hierarchies, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, congregations of laity, regular meetings or services for the purposes of veneration of a deity or for prayer, holy places (either natural or architectural), and/or scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include sermons, commemoration of the activities of a god or gods, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature.
Like Book saying “believe in something” and “why you think I’m talking about God” (paraphrased). “Belief” or “faith” are one thing...to me at least, “religion” is organized.
As to judging others, we all do. I don’t care how careful one is, how self-aware or how determined not to, we judge. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t be alive, it’s human nature. We have to “judge” who to trust, who to like, etc. I understand what you mean by judging, but I think it’s more like “judging negatively”, “judgmental” or “condemning” or something, because we all judged every day. Again, semantics; you’ll have to forgive me, I adore language and especially all the subtleties of the English language. It can make for some wonderful debates!
While I certainly believe some have turned to a god when in life-and-death situations and would disagree about the use of “debunked”, there is this, again from Wiki:Quote:
The statement "There are no atheists in foxholes" is an aphorism used to argue that in times of extreme stress or fear, such as when participating in warfare, all people will believe in or hope for a higher power.
The religious convictions of current U.S. military personnel are similar to that of the general American population, though the military are slightly less religious. Though the term is occasionally used to incorrectly imply that all soldiers in combat are "converted" while under fire it is most commonly only used to emphasise the belief of the sayer that many people tend to seek out a divine power when they are facing an extreme threat.
The Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers, an atheist organization, opposes the use of this phrase. They have adopted the catchphrase of "Atheists in Foxholes" to emphasize that the original statement is just an aphorism and not a statistical fact. James Morrow has been quoted as saying "'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes."
The quote is also referenced when discussing the opposite effect — that warfare will cause some soldiers to question their existing belief in a God due to the death and violence around them.
A number of prominent individuals have been both atheists and combat veterans. During the coverage of his death and subsequent cryonic suspension, Baseball Hall of Famer and combat fighter pilot Ted Williams was reported to be an atheist by his former teammate Johnny Pesky. Richard Tillman, in giving the eulogy for his brother, former NFL player and soldier Pat Tillman, stated that Tillman "wasn't religious.". Tillman's atheism is also confirmed in a documentary about his life. In his 1988 book "Intellectuals," Paul Johnson states that writer and World War I veteran[18] Ernest Hemingway "not only did not believe in God but regarded organized religion as a menace to human happiness." Philip Paulson, plaintiff i
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Well, I never said there were no atheists in foxholes. I just said atheists were thin on the ground. I believe someone else put the foxhole phrase in my mouth.
And war causing some people to lose their religion or question the existence of God. Well, even Jesus had his moment of doubt.
To clarify my views on religion; my religion, my faith is in God. Not with men or women who purport to know the mind of God or claim to be the voice of God on earth. I don't need an intermediary to talk to God. I carry my religion, my faith in me, wherever I go. My religion does not have a Hell. I am already forgiven my sins. But I will be called to account for my actions in the next life. I have freedom to choose how I act. It is an awesome and terrible freedom, but I've hammered out my morals and do not fear the accounting as long as I don't lose sight of my moral north star.
The organization of religion being of little merit can best be documented by a book called "Dungeon Fire and Sword". It is the story of the Knights Templar. Well worth reading and remembering. I have no fear of losing my way in the moral wilderness as long as I don't follow another man's path blindly.
And yes, Shepherd Book's words to Mal are very appropriate.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
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