Suddenly on the other side...and it aint pretty.

Hero,

This is just the start. You still have it relatively cushy even for a public employee. My sister worked 12 years with never more than 10 days off per year for veterans affairs.

Nothing personal, I think it's good that you're noticing that everything is not as it should be, and you know this is coming from a solid free market perspective when it's coming from me. That said, it's curious to me that those for whom things are pretty good squeal when things start to get bad, I suspect that it's that they just haven't noticed how bad things are for everyone else. I only ever had one job with health benefits, and that was a cushy teaching job. I got screwed out of that job because I was under someone who was very disabled. He retired, so I was cancelled, even though I was contracted with the aid to the disabled dept. and there was an english professor who wanted me as his assistant. The nature of the job being to be the professor for everything the professor couldn't do himself, like grade papers, make up tests, etc., under his direction.

But most of the jobs I've had have had no vacation, and no benefits, and no weekends. A common set was 10 days on, 1 day off, but not all jobs had that. Some where 16/7. 16 hours, seven days a week, no breaks. And this is the USA.

In a free market, the total economic value of a society should be balanced on its total productivity, but the total labor should be rewarded, economically, by the amount put in, and that there should be a decent amount of freedom of choice in how much time you want to put in.

One job I took home nothing but stock options for two years, and then the options became worthless. My sister in law did this for five year. It's a big lure, the options, because you hear about all these "we went public" instant millionaires. No one tells you that this can also be used for de facto slave labor.

It's really tricky out there. That's why I'm my own boss now. But that said, I still have problems to deal with, and am trying to deal with one of them right now.

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Well said Lili.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by BlueHandedMenace:
They didn't move the fence on you.

That was a fake fence, you just got a glimpse of how far off the real one is.

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I disagree. My position has not changed. I still believe that public unions should not have collective bargaining rights. This is because they have the ability to influence elections by voting which creates a conflict of interest.

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Oddly, you argue that corporations SHOULD be able to influence elections by spending all the money they want. And curiously, you don't see ANY conflict of interest in them giving campaign cash to people who will be voting on things that will directly impact those same corporations. Hell, they're even allowed to give money directly to Supreme Court Justices - or at least to their wives!

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If unions elect the Mayor and unions bargain for their rights then there is no adversarial process in contract bargaining since they are in effect represented by both labor and management. This leads to the pensions and benefits and salaries that are more then they'd get in comparable private positions.

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Can you show me one election where "the union" registered to vote, and where "the union" singlehandedly chose the winner of the election?

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In my case, however, I did not benefit from collective bargaining. The City sets my salary and my benefits based on what it can afford and what the City Council feels is reasonable for my services. I do not think its right for the state to interfere with the process by setting artificial ceilings. Rather they should act to set minimum standards to preserve the wages and benefits of all workers at a fair level upon which City administrations can build.

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You mean you don't PARTICIPATE in collective bargaining. To say you don't benefit from it is disingenuous. That's like saying that non-union Toyota employees don't benefit from the advances the UAW has made for its members. Of course the non-members benefit! Toyota, in an effort to keep the unions out, pays highly competitive wages and benefits commensurate with many union shops, so their workers definitely benefit. As do you.

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The fact is I could make more money as a private attorney and there are many professionals such as myself working in City administration.

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According to the right-wing talking points, all public-sector workers are getting rich on the taxpayers' teat. It's ludicrous to think you could make more in the private sector, because every pundit on FauxNews insists that public-sector employees get paid FAR MORE than their private-sector counterparts. You have no idea how good you've got it, obviously.

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By setting these artificial ceilings the State is limiting the City's ability to compete with the private sector for experianced and effective workers. Let the City budgets and local leaders make the decision about going with someone with the skills and experiance they need versus what can they afford to pay.

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So that's why the GOP can't get any good legislators! They don't believe in paying public-sector employees what they're worth, so they get worthless employees!


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
So you were okay with it as long as it was happening to somebody else, but when it comes home to visit you, not so much.

Welcome to the world of be-careful-what-you-wish-for.

Remember my commentary about how the worst possible thing you do to someone is give them what they want ?

Well, you wanted this, you voted for it - and now that you have to face the consequences, the responsibility, own the results of your own decisions, suddenly you don't want it anymore ?

Well, much as I am inherently hostile to you, I might have been okay with that, save for the fact that you STILL want it for everyone else, just not YOU - which means I will neither support nor aid you in any way, sorry.

Injustice anywhere threatens Justice everywhere, but of course, what know YOU of the J-word, given your whole job is to make sure it never happens.

-Frem

ETA: THIS

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Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
You have just been rewarded for your loyalty.

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I. Told. You. So.

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Okay, once I saw what "Hero" posted, I knew what was coming, and had the sense to set my coffee aside this time, so as not to do a spit-take all over my computer.

And reading Frem's response, I am very glad of that decision.

He's 100% right, of course. You're all about shabby treatment of "underlings", "Hero" - until you come to the stark and shocking realization that you too have a boss, and that boss is in a mood to give some shabby treatment to HIS "underlings". Shit always rolls downhill; you just never realized that you're living in the valley with the rest of us.

I should feel sorry for you, "Hero"? If you're so upset, why don't you quit sucking off the public tit and go out and get a real job? It would be hilarious to see you actually have to work for a living, if anyone would hire you, that is.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Magons and Lili; you speak for me. I guess it's mandatory membership I'm on the fence about; I misspoke when I said it was collective bargaining. THAT I'm totally in favor of.

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Pretty much where I come down. On the one hand, you shouldn't be FORCED to join a union, any union. On the other hand, it shouldn't be ILLEGAL for you to join one. Want in? Pay your dues. Want out? Stop paying your dues.

It would also be neat if gyms and tanning salons worked this way. :)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Hero, this is giving you an oppertunity to revise your opinion, its a bummer that this happened to you, but its one of those things, I guess the question is what will you do with it?

And I do believe that lawyers who work the public lawyer jobs are important, they are the ones who represent the people who can't afford to pay the private lawyers fees are they not?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Originally posted by RionaEire:
And I do believe that lawyers who work the public lawyer jobs are important, they are the ones who represent the people who can't afford to pay the private lawyers fees are they not?

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You are talking about Public Defenders and Court Appointed lawyers. PD's are public employees and generally make very little doing it. Court Appointed lawyers (for felony cases) are private attorneys who are paid a flat per-hour fee. The fee is not big, but the work is steady so during the economic downturn many private attorneys are happy to be on the list to add a couple appointments/month to their bottom line.

My City employs six attorneys. We represent the State of Ohio, the City, and the people. Three of us are prosecutors, the other three are Civil attorneys (including our Law Director). Lawyers from our office manage a diverse practice from negotiating union contracts to prosecuting criminal cases. There is no govt function or interaction with the public that we do not influence. For example, I authorize and prosecute criminal cases, I sit on the Animal Appeals Board (if you get a vicious dog), I work with Utility Billing (I'm the reason my City wont shut off a deadbeat's heat in January), I work with the Zoning and Building Departments, last year a represented the Charter Review Commission, I'm currently drafting new ordinances making it illegal to discharge a laser in our City (use a laser, go to jail) and making it a crime to resell event tickets without a license, and I'm personally responsible for getting the lasers and radars updated in our Court so if you get a speeding ticket in my county...I expect a 'thank you' note.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Hero, sorry to hear of your plight. But in response, I can't possibly say it better than BlueHand

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What you have just experienced Hero, is the curtain being lifted from your eyes. The conservatives out there dont give a fuck about you. Unless you are contributing 7 figures to their reelections, you are not someone whose interests and well being they will ever consider, or value.... You make a reasoned argument about your community's fiscal discipline, and that you have a reasonable expectation that the sacrifices you have agreed to would be enough to feed the beast, and that they wouldn't come after you harder. What you don't realize is this has nothing to do with the bottom line. This is all about the conservative movement capitilzing on the economic fear of our country to push through an agenda they have had for decades.

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I've been a public employee for quite a few decades, and I've know quite a few. In every case where operations have been privatized, it has turned out to be more costly, less efficient, and with poorer service than before, whether this has been hospital kitchen service or postal service or laboratory analysis.

It's NOT about fiscal restraint or efficiency, or anything like that. Sorry you had to experience it personally. What's that tagline...?

"It's not personal, it's just war".

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