Wisconsin protests and the lies about the 'shortfall'
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Friday, April 7, 2023 15:36
VIEWED: 5187
PAGE 1 of 1
It's no Egypt, but it's happening right here through what amounts to a "lying dictatorial Governor" and we've got some of the same problems as Egypt:Quote:
More at http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110217/cm_ac/7882104_wisconsin_protests_p
Many experts pointed out that we have a disenfranchised youth, high unemployment, and a great divide between the elites and the public at large, just like Egypt.
laced_alongside_egypts_a_poor_comparison_1
So why not WIDEN the gap between elites and public? Seems to me to be the thing the right is best at. Busting the unions has been a long-held Republican goal, just as "privatizing" Social Security and Medicare. This guy disgusts me, in both his lies, what he's doing and that he's trying to ramrod such a huge change into law in a WEEK, with no discussions at all. If it succeeds, watch unions go down all over the country. It's almost as if they'd like to go back to child labor, 7-day workweeks, etc. BLEED those workers; we want our profits!
I heard the union workers were quite open to cutting wages and other things, believing they ought to carry their share of the fiscal problems, it's the destruction of collective barganing that's the sticking point. But Walker refuses to even discuss it...and of COURSE it's the sticking point; in my opinion it's the WHOLE point. The supposed "shortfall" he's using as his excuse was caused by him in the first place, no doubt in order to set up this little ploy:Quote:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned
To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January.Quote:
The fiscal bureau's report holds that "more than half" of the new shortfall comes from three of Walker's initiatives:
$25 million for an economic development fund for job creation, which still holds $73 million because of anemic job growth.
$48 million for private health savings accounts -- a perennial Republican favorite.
$67 million for a tax incentive plan that benefits employers, but at levels too low to spur hiring.
In essence, public workers are being asked to pick up the tab for this agenda. "The provisions in his bill do two things simultaneously," Norman says. "They remove bargaining rights, and having accomplished that, make changes in the benefit packages." That's how Walker's plan saves money. And when it's all said and done, these workers will have lost their bargaining rights going forward in perpetuity.
-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php
If you don’t like the source, the facts can be found in numerous other places. The fact is that the Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau stated that "the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office." The state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus.
The same thing has been reported elsewhere:Quote:
The report Monday by the Legislative Fiscal Bureau ( http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2010_01_27_MillerPocan.pdf) found that over the next three fiscal years, the state will collect $203 million less in taxes than previously estimated. More than half of that drop in expected tax collections is because of tax-cut bills that Walker has signed or is poised to sign.
In addition, the state has two big obligations looming: a $58.7 million payment to the State of Minnesota after the end of a tax-reciprocity agreement between Wisconsin and its neighbo
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Yup, heeeere it comes:Quote:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/18/news/economy/union_protest/index.htm?h
Lots of state officials are pressing public employees to shoulder more of their health care and pension costs.
But in some places -- notably Wisconsin and Ohio -- officials are looking to go one step farther. Governors and lawmakers there are trying to limit or end public workers' collective bargaining ability, effectively neutering the unions.
Protests have also erupted in Columbus, Ohio as a bill proposing to eliminate collective bargaining for state workers and public university employees makes its way through the state legislature.
Many state and local governments have been leaning on their employees as they look to cut costs and balance their budgets during the Great Recession. Workers, to varying degrees, have made concessions -- taking furloughs or pay freezes and upping their contributions to their health care and retirement benefits.
State officials have long floated so-called right-to-work proposals that would curtail or eliminate union power. But this year, they are getting more traction because Republicans -- who are generally not big fans of unions -- have gained control of more state capitols and governor's mansions.
For instance, a bill that would end collective bargaining for teachers is currently working its way through the legislature in Tennessee, where Republicans captured the governor's office and took a commanding lead in the house.
And in Indiana, which banned collective bargaining on the state level in 2005, lawmakers are considering a bill to curtail the power of teachers' unions, which are at the local level.
A bill in Ohio, meanwhile, would not only eliminate collective bargaining but would also make fewer police and firefighters eligible to participate in unions.
Additionally, the Ohio bill would make all public workers pay at least 20% of their health insurance premiums and would eliminate tenure as a consideration when making layoffs. And it would require pay be based on merit for most workers.
But union leaders say that public employees have been giving plenty throughout the recession. Many states have effectively cut pay by instituting furloughs and workers have been contributing more to their benefits.
In California, for instance, workers agreed last year to contribute 10% of their pay to their pensions, up from 5%, said Steven Kreisberg, director of collective bargaining for the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees. Ohio public employees made $250 million in concessions in 2008, including an increase in their health care contributions.
"Public employees, through their unions, are making sacrifices," Kreisberg said. "Any argument that workers are not willing to make concessions is clearly not demonstrated by the facts."
pt=T1
In other words, it's not about cuts and contributions to pension, etc., it's about busting the unions. And it's happening where REPUBLICANS have the power. Ahhh, the American way. Aaaaand, away we go...
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off 
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I'm so upset by this. I'm doing what I can to stop it. I don't know what the hell these politicians have against the middle class and decent working environments and wages, but we will not tolerate this!
I'm very proud of our firemen and police for coming out to support the other unions, even though they themselves would get a free pass. Standing together is the only thing that will work here!
Facts are stubborn things.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I wholeheartedly agree. I thought it was cool of the firefighters, too. It blows my mind how short-sighted these people are; we really need FEWER police and firefighters...and teachers for that matter! But hot damn, we need more corporations to pay our politicians to vote for their interests...you betcha!
Hey, by "we" are you indicating you live in Wisconsin? Like to know where people are from, sometimes it's fun to see if they reflect where they live or are diametrically opposite to it (Mike being a great example...if the rest of Texas knew how he thinks, he'd be tarred and feathered!).
Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I am no fan of public employees or their unions. Devil take them.
Yet I fail to see how the changes in Wisconsin are an improvement, so much as an outright assault on the past 100 years of labor. This bothers me.
What bothers me most, however, is that legislators abandoned the political process when they realized they were on the losing side. This is not a desperate, heroic act. I recognize there is a precedent for this (Texas redistricting), but it is an awful one.
Drawing analogies between Egypt and Wisconsin is a bit silly. My Green friends, who often accuse me of apostasy, have stretched for the comparison a lot over the past week. They have riot envy.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Must suck to be a liberal these days, now YOU'RE the bad guys everyone is protesting.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Hey, by "we" are you indicating you live in Wisconsin?
Yes indeed. I'm from Racine, I lived in Milwaukee for a time, then came to Appleton for school. Milwaukee is a gorgeous city, but Appleton is far easier to spell.
I like it here, for the most part, but it's hell in the winter. Rachele tried to get a job in Hawaii once, but it didn't pan out. Hopefully someday we'll be able to move to warmer climates, or at least get a winter home.
Facts are stubborn things.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
Must suck to be a liberal these days, now YOU'RE the bad guys everyone is protesting.
Your logic is broken.
Ritual is what happens when we run out of rational.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Go to "You Tube", the "Tea Party" is on the way. It's going to be funny!
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
Must suck to be a liberal these days, now YOU'RE the bad guys everyone is protesting.
Your logic is broken.
Ritual is what happens when we run out of rational.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
A whozit has no logic. It was not created with one ;)
Oh, the same problems with Egypt? Wisconsin is ruled by a torturer in chief? Oh right, it is 
Snap.
[/max snark quotient density]
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I have a friend in Alexandria - she's happy about the changes but I think still fairly careful about speaking her mind too freely. She called me the other day to day hi, and that she was happy with the way things had gone.
There was a lot of bad - political repression and torture - but also economic dysfunction and corruption. Government workers, unions and students were a large part of the protests, protesting for better wages, better work conditions, higher minimum wage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Revolution_of_2011
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
I am no fan of public employees or their unions. Devil take them.
Yet I fail to see how the changes in Wisconsin are an improvement, so much as an outright assault on the past 100 years of labor. This bothers me.
What bothers me most, however, is that legislators abandoned the political process when they realized they were on the losing side. This is not a desperate, heroic act. I recognize there is a precedent for this (Texas redistricting), but it is an awful one.
Drawing analogies between Egypt and Wisconsin is a bit silly. My Green friends, who often accuse me of apostasy, have stretched for the comparison a lot over the past week. They have riot envy.
Once again I find myself siding with the beast. The devil made those legislators flee the state to shit evil pooh on our political process. The concept of unions dictating what a civil servant recieves in wages and benefits had to have been spawned in hell as well. I would vomit pure joy if the tea party showed up in Wisconsin and beat the parasitic bastards with the gadsden flag. The comparision to Egyptian sand-nigger riots is about as stupid as the creation of the donuthole or light beer. This whole "news event" is being paraded on the television to keep the "real" story from our minds....Mrs. Obama recently shit her pants while coughing really hard.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
What do the rich want?
The ability to suck everyone as dry as possible as quickly as possible, with no wiggling from the victims.
What do the rich hate? Anything that gets in the way of their absolute, unlimited greed:
Taxes.
Government.
The middle class.
Unions.
"For god's sake, don't even DREAM of standing up for your interests!!!! You deserve to be turned into an empty husk, that is your role in life, you stupid insect."
Right now, there is not a quanta's difference between the Tea Baggers and/or the Republican party and the corporate class.
So now for some facts.
COUNTRYWIDE AND THE BANKS BROKE THE PENSIONS. After creating and pushing unrealistically rapacious loans... loans destined to fail... they repackaged them into AAA-rated toilet paper and sold it to insurances (AIG), pensions, and investment banks (Goldman, UBS, etc). After the toilet paper shredded, the big players got bailed out. Bankers? Investors? Doing GREAT! Big bonuses late 2010, champagne parties, private jets, the works, last I heard.
Pensions, mortgages for average Americans? Oh. Well. Got what they deserved for being stupid and especially for being politically unconnected, dontcha see. So, let's stick it to the victims... again. Make THEM pay for bank fraud. Very much like the Enron-created "energy crisis" which looted the CA Treasury of $21 billion. That's what capitalists call a "successful model": rape the poor, and then rape them again.
BTW_ the facts show that public workers get paid LESS and have FEWER benefits than their private-sector counterparts at all levels of education except "less than HS"... and even there, the difference is minimal. I know facts don't get in the way of a lot of folks here, but there they are.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Signym
What do the rich hate? Anything that gets in the way of their absolute, unlimited greed:
Taxes.
Government.
The middle class.
Unions.
Revisit these some day.
The rich are unconcerned with paying taxes, they have no income. Their rich. Only wage earners pay taxes.
Why do taxes even exist? Why doesn't the govt. just print more money when it needs it? Gnaw it over.
Oh, ditto for govt. Why does govt. even exist? The idea that laws and police alter human behavior in a positive manner has been thoroughly debunked here by people more or less on your side.
If there wasn't a govt, how would the rich get richer. Hell. How would they even know they were rich?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
DT, if we all lived at subsistence level and bartered for trade and there was no such thing as wide-scale cooperation or currency we'd all be more equal. But once you introduce ANY of those things.... things even YOU depend on for your existence, much as you try to stay out of it... then a whole host of other organizations come into being.
And what does that have to do with Wisonsin, or any part of the real world? All of the assumptions that you base your opinion on are unworkable on a practical level, and unworkable even in a theoretical sense.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"The idea that laws and police alter human behavior in a positive manner has been thoroughly debunked here by people more or less on your side."
Not sure that this is true, but I want to point out that SOMEthing alters human behavior. Otherwise, why do we drive on the right hand side of the road or trade work for electronic bits, behaviors that are clearly socially arbitrary.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
GOOD NEWS! The worlds biggest media whore Jesse Jackson is there, now Madison will be on fire in no time! You libs wanted it to get ugly, well the "Civil War 2" is about to begin. I'm going to open an ice cold COORS and watch Madison burn
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Absolutely, comparing Wisconsin with the protests in Egypt is way out of proportion, and I’m not doing it. It’s a quote. Nonetheless, we DO have some of the same problems they do. Tell me we don’t have Quote:
The Egyptians suffered greatly; the protesters in Wisconsin haven’t “suffered” at all and know they are safe from the army or anyone else attacking them with impunity. Nonetheless, I do not deny the similarities listed.
disenfranchised youth, high unemployment, and a great divide between the elites and the public at large.Quote:
That’s precisely what it is. The Governor deliberately gave tax cuts (in almost exactly the same amount as what he’s moaning about being a “deficit” now) just before he pulled this out of the hat. To deny the correlation is pure...well, denial!
outright assault on the past 100 years of labor
As to the legislators; please tell me what alternative they had when something this egregious is done, given that Wisconsin has no filibuster provision or any other form of redress and they KNOW if they provide a quorum, it goes through. It’s precisely what the Republicans did with the filibuster, and did for two freaking years...so to complain about some legislators actually acting on their consciences being the bad guys doesn’t fly with me. IF the Governor had allowed any debate, any compromise, even any DISCUSSION of the issue it would be different, in my opinion. But he demanded it be forced through to be law in a couple of DAYS, which is pure dictatorialism. The people had already SAID they were quite willing to up their contributions to pension/health care; he wants more than that, he wants to bust their rights to negotiate virtually ANYTHING in the future. It’s an obvious, unquestionably ploy, to me.
I’m confused; how is it the liberals “everyone’s protesting”? I didn’t know union employees were protesting “liberals”. I agree that, if a whozit were created with logic, it would definitely show how broken it is by this statement. But I expect no less, so it’s irrelevant, as is the source
Sig, I see the same thing, especially the war on the middle class. Economist I was watching said the logic is that the rich donate huge amounts to political campaigns, the poor have nothing to give, so the obvious target is the middle class, of whom there many remain, they are still supposedly the largest block of Americans, and that’s what is happening. Not that it started NOW...Quote:
I heard that too...have to look it up, as well as how the healthcare and pensions they receive compare to non-government workers. Will search it out.
the facts show that public workers get paid LESS and have FEWER benefits than their private-sector counterparts at all levels of education except "less than HS"... and even there, the difference is minimal. I know facts don't get in the way of a lot of folks here, but there they are.
It’s pretty predictable to me that the righties are the most vociferous ones defending this issue; it’s not just the rich who hate the things Sig enumerated, it’s the REPUBLICANS, and this is an agenda they’ve had for decades. They are a party of DEstruction, not CONstruction. Everything they’re doing right now is tear down everything they don’t like, as in Planned Parenthood, the unions, ACORN, restrictions on anything business wants, any form of regulation of business, the EPA, Social Security, Medicare, and on and on and on. Seems to me when I look at it that anything and everything that benefits the regular people of America is anathema to them and they’ll do whatever they can to bring it down, while anything and everything that benefits the rich and corporations is their big agenda. Whether what they do is moral, or even legal, doesn’t bother them in the slightest. And a lot of this has been planned for decades and is being implemented because they feel the wave is with them. The Republican Party is very good at being patient, at taking the long view, about using public policy for partisan purposes, to
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Are they flipping cop cars yet? When they start flipping cop cars and setting fire to "Starbucks" that'll be a great sign. I WANT MADISON TO BURN!!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Sig,
Complex economics way predates govt. That's why you have economic models like yams, cowry shells and gold: If the currency itself is inherently limited, then there's no need for anyone to run it. I know you can name a dozen more economic models just like these, and I dare anyone to counterfeit a sea shell for less than its par value. (I don't think even raising sea creatures would do it, it's not cheap.)
While I'm at it, so does farming. Farming is older than civilization by farm, and even fairly advanced farming is older than written language. Crop rotation and permaculture sustainable farming are more advanced forms than are used on most of the planet are both prehistoric, as is irrigation. between 10,000bce and 5,000 bce, the people of dagistan already had an advanced agricultural system us sustainable ag, while not yet unified ancient egyptians had a whole economy based on it, and pre-literate meso-americans already had advanced bio-engineering the created the GMOs that we think are natural.
As for theories that sound good on paper and don't work out in reality? self proclaimed socialists should throw stones
But seriously, my post had nothing to do with Wisconsin. It didn't claim to. It was a direct response to your post. About the rich. I'm not rich, but I am serious: You should think about this. The questions posed in my response were for you to think about. It's more complicated than you think, I was just pointing out some obvious holes.
The rich have absolute power. If they wanted taxes gone, they would be gone tomorrow.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
GOOD NEWS! The worlds biggest media whore Jesse Jackson is there, now Madison will be on fire in no time! You libs wanted it to get ugly, well the "Civil War 2" is about to begin. I'm going to open an ice cold COORS and watch Madison burn
Coors? Really? We are talking about Wisconsin burning...crack a Miller!!!!
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Fuck what made Milwaukee famous.
Originally posted by kaneman:Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
GOOD NEWS! The worlds biggest media whore Jesse Jackson is there, now Madison will be on fire in no time! You libs wanted it to get ugly, well the "Civil War 2" is about to begin. I'm going to open an ice cold COORS and watch Madison burn
Coors? Really? We are talking about Wisconsin burning...crack a Miller!!!!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The local Anarchists and IWW are on site and active, just so you know.
http://www.iww.org/en/node/5346
Of course, no one (yet!) is listening to me so much, so I shall patiently wait for the so-called representatives to once again ignore the will of the people and spit in their face, till eventually their shouted demands give way to silent seething, and then put forth the concept I have been suggesting from the very start here.
Impeachment.
Given that Wisconsin is in it's own way one of the very fonts of labor union rights, in great part to the IWW despite them being historically ignored....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_L._Berger
This moron couldn't possibly have picked a worse hornets nest to go poking, although I suspect it's deliberate, as a test to see if they can push the first domino over.
All I got to say to it for the moment is...
Hold the line, reinforcements are on the way.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
The local Anarchists and IWW are on site and active, just so you know.
http://www.iww.org/en/node/5346
Of course, no one (yet!) is listening to me so much, so I shall patiently wait for the so-called representatives to once again ignore the will of the people and spit in their face, till eventually their shouted demands give way to silent seething, and then put forth the concept I have been suggesting from the very start here.
Impeachment.
Given that Wisconsin is in it's own way one of the very fonts of labor union rights, in great part to the IWW despite them being historically ignored....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_L._Berger
This moron couldn't possibly have picked a worse hornets nest to go poking, although I suspect it's deliberate, as a test to see if they can push the first domino over.
All I got to say to it for the moment is...
Hold the line, reinforcements are on the way.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
Your brain works about as good as your leg. They are listening to the will of the people. It is the 14 cowards that fled the state that is derailing the peoples vote....dumb fuck.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
All government unions should be banned. The idea that government workers need protection from guess who?? THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, is ridiculous.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Along with all those currencies, DT, came GOVERNMENT. Please, read some history!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Get your recall pins here!
http://www.zazzle.com/recall_scott_walker_button-145694529772563848
Recall drive already in progress.
http://scottwalkerwatch.com/?page_id=677
Is it too early to lay in a supply of pitchforks and torches, maybe some tar and feathers ?
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
A whozit has no logic. It was not created with one ;)
Oh, the same problems with Egypt? Wisconsin is ruled by a torturer in chief? Oh right, it is
That explains why the teabaggers support him.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Along with all those currencies, DT, came GOVERNMENT. Please, read some history!
Ah, the insult adds so much strength to the argument I find.
See. Thafs a snark. Please read some history is a primitive fifth grader kind of jab.
Oh, and that was a snark too
Sig, as hopeless as it may be that you will actual see the light [/snark 3! Is that an out?] I try anyway...
Many thousands of years passed. If someone invents the bottle, and thousands of years later Someone unrelated invents Pepsi, then are you going to blame the bottle inventor for diabetes whilst defending Pepsi?
That's pretty much the argument you just made.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
DT, it's your whole-cloth rejection of "gubmint" I find troubling. When people trade using cowrie shells, or beads, or what-have-you, there ALREADY exists the notion of ownership and fiat currency. Also, there exists language to represent those things (including a numbering system that goes beyond one-two-three-many), as well as some sort of bookkeeping, AND long-distance enforcement. These are complex ideas that must exist in order for those economic activities to occur. You have fantastical notions, like our resident gun-promoter who thinks that shooting firearms is some sort of sustainable skill in a society that can't quite get cobalt for high-strength steel, or that we can somehow revert to an agricultural model and but can't figure our how to get nails, cotton cloth, glass, and steel plows !
I'm looking for a SUSTAINABLE PRACTICAL model, not some kind of pie-in-the sky-let's-go-back-to-some-system-that never-existed theory. A model that takes into account that complex economies need a LOT of long-distance trade, and therefore international exchange. I apologize for the snark, but I'm very short of time and I meant exactly what I said: Read some history, it will make the argument more completely than I can.
If you feel that you have a model that takes into account the real, practical necessities of modern life, advanced technology and international trade but avoids all the evils of "gubmint", then by all means please spell it out. In detail. Instead of some drive-by snark of your own about "gubmint". After all, you seem to have all the time in the world to watch games, so why don't you put that time to good use and answer the questions that our "let's go back in time, get rid of government, keep the technology but get rid of international trade" contingent can't ever seem to get around answering?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Oh yeah, because GOD FORBID that people should have freedom of association! You anti-American Nazi, why don't you go back to the Third Reich where you belong, you freedom-hating whore? Go spread your legs for some other tyrant, m'kay?
All government unions should be banned.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Well, I see Kaneman and its sock puppet haven't answered. WARNING! WARNING! Credibility factor rapidly approaching zero!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Along with all those currencies, DT, came GOVERNMENT. Please, read some history!
Ah, the insult adds so much strength to the argument I find.
See. Thafs a snark. Please read some history is a primitive fifth grader kind of jab.
Oh, and that was a snark too
Sig, as hopeless as it may be that you will actual see the light [/snark 3! Is that an out?] I try anyway...
Many thousands of years passed. If someone invents the bottle, and thousands of years later Someone unrelated invents Pepsi, then are you going to blame the bottle inventor for diabetes whilst defending Pepsi?
That's pretty much the argument you just made.
You're doing it again. Insulting people while calling for them to NOT insult you.
And you're ASSUMING that Signy *wasn't* snarking at you.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Oh yeah, because GOD FORBID that people should have freedom of association! You anti-American Nazi, why don't you go back to the Third Reich where you belong, you freedom-hating whore? Go spread your legs for some other tyrant, m'kay?
All government unions should be banned.
Well, what KKKaney really means is that in order to get smaller government, we need larger government to tell us what we can and can't do. Laws banning unions (whether civil unions or labor unions) aren't tyranny in KKKaneyWorld™; laws guaranteeing basic healthcare ARE tyranny.
By the way, Texas is now passing a healthcare "mandate", all while actively suing the federal government for passing a healthcare "mandate" of its own. Ours mandates that any woman seeking a legal medical service MUST first have a sonogram and have it explained in explicit detail what that medical procedure entails. Texas, in other words, is implementing full-scale "death panels" by government mandate.
Oddly, not a single teabagger has stood up to denounce this. Why? Because it fits perfectly with their vision of "small government", of course.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Oh yeah, because GOD FORBID that people should have freedom of association! You anti-American Nazi, why don't you go back to the Third Reich where you belong, you freedom-hating whore? Go spread your legs for some other tyrant, m'kay?
All government unions should be banned.
Yeah, okay. Banned may be a bit much. Let em unionize...they do have the right and I would be a hypocrite to not recognize that... Just don't deal with them. Let the state and voters dictate the terms of our civil servants wages and pensions. When the public sector is making 2x what the private sector makes for the same work...we got a problem.....If they don't go for it? Do what New Haven did...fire em.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
DT, it's your whole-cloth rejection of "gubmint" I find troubling.
Why? I'm not about to overthrow the deathtatorship under which you live ;)
Oh, no, fiat came later. Limited resource currency was first. Fiat required someone to declare its value. Early humans were still filled with fiat systems, but there was lots of pre-fiat currency. There still is, Yams are still currency in New Guinea, in spite of, rather than because of the govt's issue of a fiat. When the economy collapsed a few years back, the peasants (headhunters to be politically incorrect) with yams took over the economy. Seems govt. was the only thing keeping the rich rich and the poor poor. Huh, ain't that funny. 'cause it's not like that's ever happened anywhere else ;)
Quote:
long-distance enforcement
Nonsense. yams or whatever are currency by general agreement, not by dic-tater-ship ;)
Quote:
our resident gun-promoter
Which one? Frem? Mike? Wulf? Speaking of which, not only are their many 2a people here, there are a lot of anarchists, in fact, Joss is an anarchist., he says so. The characters in firefly says so. The characters in Buffy say so. Buffy and the gang: "We're anarchists" (season four) So, I think that the idea that a Joss Whedon fan is an anarchist is as scary as that a metallica fan listens to heavy metal.
And while I'm at it. This website is for a gunslinger show. I may disagree with them, but I'll certainly concede that it is a gunslinger show. It's not giving me a lot of room to base my anti-gun attack now is it?
Quote:
I'm looking for a SUSTAINABLE PRACTICAL model
Oh, and here I thought you like socialism [/snark]
Quote:
I apologize for the snark
Thanks, but that was a snark? [/snark]
I think you've been reading some agenda-laiden history. Wasn't it you who posted that Caral was some prehistoric paradise of freedom and sustainability?
Quote:
"gubmint"
your spellcheck is off ;)
Anyway, who said I wanted to get rid of international trade? Not me in many years of posting my free market supply side arguments in favor of international trade ;) I think that you have mistaken me for someone else, like the majority of people here who don't seem to support my position on that. This machine was made in China. So was everything else. If it weren't, I'd never have been able to afford it. Even my mouse was made in China. nice mouse too, trackball, kensington. Pretty sweet.
ETA: Sig, you just Godwin'd Kane. you having sockpuppet envy?
Mike,
You miss something about the nature of snark?
'twas a primitive snark barely worthy of the name.
Oh, and those were snarks.
Also you're also godwin'ing Kane just not as directly. Though this one is fair. Kaneman is much more in line with the KKK than with the Nazis. I think she's been fairly good to jews and israel relative to the rest of the board ;) (probably even relative to me.) though maybe now she'll start leaning from PN
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Oh yeah, because GOD FORBID that people should have freedom of association! You anti-American Nazi, why don't you go back to the Third Reich where you belong, you freedom-hating whore? Go spread your legs for some other tyrant, m'kay?
All government unions should be banned.
Well, what KKKaney really means is that in order to get smaller government, we need larger government to tell us what we can and can't do. Laws banning unions (whether civil unions or labor unions) aren't tyranny in KKKaneyWorld™; laws guaranteeing basic healthcare ARE tyranny.
By the way, Texas is now passing a healthcare "mandate", all while actively suing the federal government for passing a healthcare "mandate" of its own. Ours mandates that any woman seeking a legal medical service MUST first have a sonogram and have it explained in explicit detail what that medical procedure entails. Texas, in other words, is implementing full-scale "death panels" by government mandate.
Oddly, not a single teabagger has stood up to denounce this. Why? Because it fits perfectly with their vision of "small government", of course.
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
Well, I don't have a problem with states mandating anything. Mass has healthcare. Fine. That is the way it is supposed to work. It makes it easy to change and challenge laws state by state. If you don't like a state law the local voters can decide, if you find yourself in the minority and the matter is that serious to your happiness you can move. Federal mandates are a bit different, see the same law that makes the hippies in Cali and the yuppies in CT wet their pants...is the same law that has 30 other states shitting in theirs. You know...one size does not fit all. I'd rather have 50 choices than 1. But, I have a brain.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hello,
I am concerned that this situation involves two Kings fighting over who gets to control the serfs.
I now see the Tea Party side with one of the Kings.
I worry for the serfs.
--Anthony
Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Actually, the tea party is a random collection of serfs. There are at least two kings there... contolling them
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Yeah. IF it did we WOULD have a problem. But somewhere in the earlier threads, I said that it DOESN'T, and it DOESN'T. And from an economist's website, of all places, here are the facts:
When the public sector is making 2x what the private sector makes for the same work...we got a problem.
SO stop spewing lies all over the inet, you fucking parasite.
Oh, so you can backtrack, here's the website: www.rgemonitor.com
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
DT... and you still haven't shown me a practical system. Lot's of talk about this and that and a third thing. The funny thing is, I used to think you were a smart person. And you do come up with interesting observations once in a while, but mostly you just seem to have an ax to grind.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Due to certain considerations I cannot disuss certain of this mess in detail, but it's pretty obvious I've been doing a long-range take on Robespierre in respect to the situation.
Thing is, Walker has repeatedly threatened to call out the Wisconsin National Guard (whatever they got left not suckin sand in the middle east, that is) to "Restore Order" (aka beat down the workers).
Either the man is completely ignorant of history or he's fucking insane...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_strikes
This provoked the IWW rather quickly, after he'd already provoked both the AFSCME and by proxy the UAW - neither of which I am at all fond of, seeing them in much the same light Anthony does, but in essence superior to the Neo-Fascist-Feudalism of the "Republican" party, since it isn't a specific union they wish to take on, so much as destroy a collective RIGHT - one that, mind you, my ancestors, and likely many of yours, spilled buckets of blood, too damn much of it their own, in order to actually have respected, and codify it...
The ghost of Sid Hatfield glares at thee, from Matewan and Blair Mountain.
Mind you, this is a damned lot of people, and factually it would require only 540,208 signatures over the course of 60 days in order to recall his ass - which makes this damn near inevitable given how things are going.
Of course, since few tyrants are fool enough to short the palace gaurd despite what they do to the peasantry, you can imagine he's exempted the police unions and whatnot from his lash, of COURSE he has, which shows all the more the double standards and class/caste system these assholes wish to enforce, with many another "Republican" Governer looking on with a trickle of drool forming at the corner of their slobbering gullet at the notion of finally becoming in truth the kings they always wished to be.
And thus, the threat of the National Guard, as the cannon is the last argument of kings - but so too, is the guillotene the last argument of peasants.
Of course, this is much EASIER in Wisconsin, thanks to their idiotic notion of personal defense being something to be scorned, ridiculed and outlawed, making them handily defenseless and enhancing the quality of such a threat, by putting the balance of power wholly in favor of those who have both arms and perceived legitimacy (for the moment), against those who have none.
Ergo, a company of militia has been dispatched and deployed, to forestall military aggression against those who are peaceably asserting their rights, because there are those who have NOT forgotten the lessons of history, and know that trying to peacefully assert ones rights is meaningless in the face of "authorized" violence against them - and it is this factor which has caused the Guard to finally balk, because it's all fun and games when it's naive, unarmed college students under the truncheon, but a whole different ballgame entire when there might be some actual risk to the matter instead of a jackboot stomping party, as all bullies are, essentialy our military are cowards.
And I must be off to herd some cats, but in closing I will say this much, should the Guard be deployed, and choose to fire upon unarmed protestors, it will go badly for them.
They've been made bloody well aware of it, too, just so you know.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
DT... and you still haven't shown me a practical system. Lot's of talk about this and that and a third thing. The funny thing is, I used to think you were a smart person. And you do come up with interesting observations once in a while, but mostly you just seem to have an ax to grind.
No ax
I posted several times I'm just trying to analyze psychology, I'm not really up for a political debate about what we might replace this system with at the moment, I have lots of ideas, but discussing them right now is a huge time sink.
Frankly, I think people spend far too much time planning what they would build to replace the extant powers, and not enough time getting to the point where any such talk is anything other than daydreaming.
I have work to do... lots of it. Its highly unlikely that you and I would agree on solutions for a new state, and given that neither of us are in any position to do anything about it, it would seem futile ATM.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Since I'm busy today, I'm adding in drib and drabs.
DT, you confuse a TV show with real life. Firefly is a wonderful show, but even it tends to prove my point: Anarchism as YOU (and Joss) envision it can only exist on the margins and leavings of a larger society.
As I understand it, the inspiration for Joss was the Civil War soldiers who moved west to find a new life. Yes, life was hard, but it was also NOT truly independent. Did the soldiers dig up the iron ore to make their guns, or pick, gin, spin and weave cotton to make their clothes? What did they buy with? Money?
Same thing with Firefly... Mal BUYS a ship. He BUYS his supplies. He can exist ONLY because there is a larger society. It is a society which he rejects, but ALSO a society that he depends on. Because he can move out to the fringe, but he can't stay away forever. That comes up in every show. I'm trying to come up with an anarchist society that is a COMPLETE society, one which allows for full technology AND freedom.
But anyway, moving away from theory, here we are: living under Blue Sun and the Alliance. You can build your little groups here and there, but if the shit REALLY hit the fan and the society fell part for the long term... let's say 5 years... you would be back to living at the level of the early 1800s, on the tools made "back when", and if chaos persisted longer... say, 20 years... and your tools and small engines and cloth and metal parts rusted or broke, and you had no fuel, 90% of us would be dead and the remainder would be living a hard life of unending toil, like most people lived in the 1700s.
But thanks for bringing up the show and your other points, because it make me finally... finally .... put my finger on what I was trying to do, and why I didn't think anarchist groups who wanted to run way from society would work. What I realized is, you can't run away. You can only take over. Breaks the system, and replace it with something better.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Meanwhile, as democracy and protests spread throughout the Mid-East, hope is rekindled that maybe the same will spread throughout the Mid-West!
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/egypt-supports-wisconsin-workers
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Meanwhile, as democracy and protests spread throughout the Mid-East, hope is rekindled that maybe the same will spread throughout the Mid-West!
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/egypt-supports-wisconsin-workers
"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill
Yeah sure, cause there is nothing with more synergy than a bunch of young unemployed folks protesting an oppressive government.....and....a bunch of old overpaid employed union members trying to oppress a state
man, you are gay.....and hilarious
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
You know your organization sucks when the freaking ANARCHISTS have a better logistics and supply setup than you do...
*rolling eyes*
Okay, yes, the pizza places are makin a mint and whatnot, but it's not exactly healthy and sustainable food is it now, and what goes in must come out, and few enough have given thought to THAT either...
Thankfully the same brace of churches which supported rescue efforts in New Orleans managed to borrow a catering/kitchen truck from a supportive business (which usually caters to said union members anyway) and then there's phone-tag with the port-a-john folks...
Like. Herding. Cats.
Luckily I am spared trying to run a biz at the same time due to complete whiteout conditions locally, pfffthh.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Frem if there is anything I can do... a committee taking donations or anything else... let me know.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:KANEMAN, you stupid cow, you've been 120% wrong about everything you've ever posted, so why should we listen to you? AND you apparently didn't even read Mike's link, because EGYPTIANS can see the link, even if you can't, you fat slob of a whore. So here is the story behind the picture...
Yeah sure, cause there is nothing with more synergy than a bunch of young unemployed folks protesting an oppressive government ....and.... a bunch of old overpaid employed union members trying to oppress a state
Quote:
Someone In Egypt Ordered a Pizza For the Protesters in Wisconsin
Ian’s on State Street - a small pizza place near the Capitol - has been fielding calls from citizens of twelve countries and thirty-eight states looking to donate free pizza to the Wisconsinites who have congregated to protest Scott Walker's proposed legislation reducing the rights and pay of state workers. After promoting the cause on Twitter and Facebook, Ian’s gave away 1,057 donated slices yesterday and delivered more than 300 pizzas. The blackboard behind the counter now has a running list of places where donations have come from, and it includes China and Egypt.
Oh, and BTW... the reason why I've resorted to name-calling with you? You're intellectually and morally flaccid, and I can smell you from here. Time to change your crusty greenish panties. And since you've been spoiling for a name-calling fight since the moment you got here... you've got it. I haven't NOT been name-calling because I can't, but because I was trying to treat you with a modicum of respect. You've shown you don't deserve it. I hope you go away forever, you piece of dogshit.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
In case anyone chooses to doubt it, the story is carried HERE.
From Cairo to Madison, some pizza
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49888.html
Both vans are on site now, the one with the observation ballon and signal monitoring equipment, as a deterrent to any aggression from Walkers goons, cause according to some sources he's about frothing at the mouth in rage after the National Guard told him where to stick it - he wants those people to shut up and go away, and in his current mental state, doesn't much give a fuck about doin it by the rules.
(He's sent state troopers to harrass them with additional verbal orders he insisted upon giving in private)
Ergo, one eye in the sky, courtesy of the ballon, which uses cabling instead of wireless and thus cannot be jammed - although having spotted it in the background of some of the images from the Indymedia team, imma have to have a chat with Justin about some smartass painting an eye on it, that just looks creepy.
The other van is the one used for first aid and medevac, since conventional ambulance services tend to be unreliable if a situation goes south, and given what happened last time (the police SHOT at it when it ran the barricade with someone in respiratory distress from their teargas attack onboard) it's been reinforced with a 1/4" of GE/SABIN Lexan which offers some resistance from small arms.
Much as I hate the damn Huff-n-Puff post, Jordan Z blows it out of the park when it comes to priorities here.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jordan-zakarin/the-attack-on-public-work
ers_b_825888.html
Not to mention, yanno, all that money for war-war-war, and for what ?
Also, the SEIU and AFL-CIO (who we've still not forgiven for that punk Sam Gompers) have thrown their hats in the ring too, because as the SEIU rep stated, this *IS* effectively a class war, and were it just a spat between a union and a governor, it would not be such an issue - but under that guise one of our rights itself is under attack, and despite every attempt by the media shills and the bastards of the world to obfuscate or minimize this, people DO know it.
And of course, the IWW - I'll quote both official statements here.
02-19-11
Quote:
Right now in Wisconsin public workers from across the state, supported by private sector workers, students young and old, retirees, labor activists and more, are holding unprecedented protests in Madison against the utterly dictatorial move by Governor Scott Walker to gut their collective bargaining rights.
After giving $140 million to special interest groups in January, many of whom donated to Republican campaigns and to the Governor himself, Walker is now attempting to strip Wisconsin's state workers of their hard-won right to collectively bargain over the conditions of their labor under the guise of filling a claimed $137 million budget shortfall.
A similar bill has been introduced in Ohio, and Republican Sen. Jane Cunningham in Missouri has also introduced a bill to strip state law of all Child Labor protections.
In light of these increasing attacks on the working class, We, the Steering Committee and Central Secretary Treasurer of the General Defense Committee of the Industrial Workers of the World, stand firmly behind all workers fighting back. We extend Solidarity to all workers, union or non-union, fighting back against the Capitalist class trying to return us to conditions not found since the Industrial Revolution.
As our primary mission is to offer solidarity and defense help to any workers imprisoned, arrested, attacked, or punished by the State in any way in fighting the class war, the GDC of the IWW is here to offer any and all help we can during these times, and during all labor struggles.An injury to one is an injury to ALL!
Solidarity Forever!
Signed,
Central Secretary-Treasurer:
Steven Ayers
Steering Committee:
Chuck Bailey
Eric Zenke
Marie Mason.
And 02-20-11
Quote:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Contact:
Sam Green
773-857-1090
INDUSTRIAL WORKERS OF THE WORLD STATEMENT ON WISCONSIN SBNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
UPDATE: Apparently Tom Morello is en-route, planning to support the protestors and perhaps throw a couple tunes down, in his solo persona as The Nightwatchman.
I've sent a note on specifically requesting him to cover Buffalo Springfield FWIW, if he gets the chance.
Also: THIS.
http://www.regressiveantidote.net/Articles/Waking_Up_In_Wisconsin.html
-F
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I tend to be pro-union, the workers need rights. I also understand that employers (particularly in small businesses) have things they need too. Ballance is the key. But yeah, I'm pro-union, so I feel that to make a rule in Wisconsin that they can't have a union with bargaining abilities anymore is wrong.
I agree that we shouldn't compare this to Egypt, I don't feel it matches up enough to compare without looking silly.
Caneman, your comment about Frem's leg was disgusting, I guess I know who I can't trust around here. I do agree with you though that states' rights are quite important and that more things should be decided in that capacity. I feel that some things should be federally mandated, but states should be able to decide more than they get to now.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
To 1kiki: the road rules are actually not so arbitrary.
In England, driving on the left side of the road comes from medieval times, when men on horseback wanted their sword arm to the center of the road when passing someone going the opposite direction. (True story!)
In America, the opposite is true, perhaps because guys on horseback actually didn't want to fight everyone passing them.
As for the mayor versus the union, I'm having trouble as seeing it as anything more than an inter-departmental fight between two groups of government, the bureaucrats and the administration. But perhaps I don't understand it very well.
In any case, the mayor trying to call in the national guard and federal intervention is pretty damn pathetic, and is probably enough reason for me to route against him, that and him being a mayor, and probably therefore corrupt.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I tend to be pro-union, the workers need rights. I also understand that employers (particularly in small businesses) have things they need too. Ballance is the key. But yeah, I'm pro-union, so I feel that to make a rule in Wisconsin that they can't have a union with bargaining abilities anymore is wrong.
I agree that we shouldn't compare this to Egypt, I don't feel it matches up enough to compare without looking silly.
Caneman, your comment about Frem's leg was disgusting, I guess I know who I can't trust around here. I do agree with you though that states' rights are quite important and that more things should be decided in that capacity. I feel that some things should be federally mandated, but states should be able to decide more than they get to now.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
Hey, I'm pro-union in the private sector....just not in public service jobs. They bully lawmakers and make it impossible to have a society that can sustain itself and give services at a just rate....
See, politicians come and go union bosses are there forever...bleeding the state. When civil servant jobs pay twice the private rate...something is wrong and unsustainable.
Don't believe me? look around at what civil servants get, are owed in pensions, and what the outcome will be. They are paid not by corporations...they get their $65,000 dollar civil servant job on the back of the grocery store bagger, waitress, stock brocker, doctor, landscapper,...etc
fucking gross. stealing and demanding what hard workers have to pay to get basic government services.....sick really.
When a cop can retire in New Haven Ct at the old age of 52 making 75,000, but collect a 100,000 pension for life(35+yrs) something is wrong.
Talk about workers rights? What about the rights of the working tax payers that pay this union thuggery? You know us.
What right do these people have to bankrupt states, counties, and the nation when un-unionized WORKERS will do it at a market cost.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Kaneman (I found the K key :) you make some reasonable points here, those public workers do make a lot of money for retirement. I'm not as informed on the situation as others here. But I'm pro-union as a general rule and so I don't like the idea of bargaining rights being taken away. I tend to sympathize more with company unions than I do with public ones, but I wouldn't say the public workers shouldn't be allowed to have them and get some bargaining rights. I do think though that they need to use those rights wisely and not take advantage of them, something I know does happen.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Wow. A rational non-snarky answer!! Man, you are in the wrong place. Good luck. Got my respect.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Actually, one of the organizers sent me about as flawless an explaination of WHY this is effectively class warfare as you'll ever read.
Here's the link for you.
(Despite me being even LESS fond of DailyKook than HuffnPuff post, but when the tame lapdog media won't print the good stuff...)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/21/947554/-Slave-LaborMoney-trai
l-leads-to-Koch-Brothers-and-Conservatives-who-want-your-job!
Quote:
Instead while we cried and the rest of the world wept for us, he chose to "lead" us from the back, herding us like cattle into pens and corrals set-up by Corporations such as Koch Industries, and conservative organizations like ALEC, the Heritage and Reason Foundations. Once there he left us to their manipulations and exploitation to take our savings, pensions, retirement, social security and dignity - as Americans and humans. After taking as much of that as they could lay their hands on, they began taking our homes, vehicles and then went after our jobs and fair wages. Not finished with us, these same corporate interests and Conservatives that developed and funded Bush's agenda turned to putting as many of us in prison as they could, so more money could be earned off of privatized prisons and prison industries. Many of these Conservatives remain in power, influential and still in denial as to the true history of the Bush Administration, continuing to deny that people all over the world disappeared during the Bush years, that torture was not only committed, but condoned by the White House and done proudly in the name of the U.S.
It's Neo-Feudalism with a Fascist twist right out Mussolinis economic agendas, would that these bastards end up the same way...
And of course I wouldn't be too trusting of those pensions, ask many workers, even union workers, who paid and paid and paid into one for decades only to get "Whoopsie, we looted it and fled to the caymans, too bad, so sad, SUCKER!!"
Hell, for that matter look at the folk who paid into social security for 50 some years, only to have the deal changed on them and many of the expected services (dental, eyewear, yanno, two of the things most old geezers NEED) hacked right out - that's like makin the payments on a fucking Porsche and being handed a Yugo, isn't it ?
One thing I am really vicious about, personally, to the point where even the US Military got their fingers burned, is that YOU DO NOT BREAK CONTRACT WITH ME - cause right or wrong, we had a deal, see ?
And changing the deal AFTER the other guy has paid, well that's bullshit, and I am ALL in favor of Auntie Entity's solution to that problem.
Anyhows, does anyone here really, REALLY think they're actually gonna GET any of that money they're payin into some pension or social security back when they retire, IF they survive to retire, by which time inflation and cost of living increases (without wage increases, which have been flat as a fuckin flapjack since the goddamn 70's) will have chewed the value out of it till the payment itself would be insultingly small...
Ergo, I reject the pension argument, for that reason, and for the fact that Walker deliberately added 140 million of pure pork, THEN claimed a 137 million shortfall - this is not coincidence.
Oh, and those rightwingnuts out there pelted the catering truck with rocks, being their typical bully-dickhead-coward selves, chuck and run, of course, not too much damage and no major injuries, but some of the glass is going to have to be replaced.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Rising crime and thefts
union reforms
Senate might Limit Bargaining by Public Workers
rising gambling, homeless, alcoholism, drugs
more 'filibuster' politics
Other developments... gossip that ' pink haired weirdos who went to the old folks homes and offered them ice cream for their signatures'?
Milwaukee, Racine, Green Bay, Beloit, Kenosha.
Trump charges and progressive candidates’ election victories in Chicago, Wisconsin leave left elated
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/apr/5/trump-charges-and-prog
ressive-candidates-election-/
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME