Someone please break Joss' fingers! [spoiler]
POSTED BY: Toadsmoothy
UPDATED: Saturday, January 1, 2011 01:04
VIEWED: 40555
PAGE 13 of 13
...She has a soft heart, underneath it all.
Again, this seems to be an attribute you want to bestow upon her.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
And…When exactly in canon does she demonstrate this because I’ve seem to have missed it.
Can you be more specific by citing evidence?
Really? Ok. In OIS, pretty much her entire speech to Jubal Early. "Can't be trusted" etc. And in the BDM "Bullet to the brainpan" & "It isn't safe...for them". Off the top of my head. Obviously she was referring to the situation in the BDM parts, particularly the bullet to the brainpan part, but it's not a stretch to say River is aware that she herself is a danger, nor that she would also associate that danger with what she herself is. But if you disagree feel free to say so.
As far as River having a genuine kindness to her, really in most most things about her I see that, in her behavior, and again in OIS and in Safe of course...I mean pretty much all of it. Her apologetic behavior to Simon in the BDM after she had hit him...most of the time she could be described as cold or callous are when her programming kicks in. When she's being herself, not so much, but again, if you think her characterization does not support that, feel free to explain your point of view.
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"Bullet to the brainpan"
I interpret this as River being in a lot of personal pain because of her trauma and wanting to end it, not because she wants to spare anyone else from harm.
"It isn't safe...for them".
She returns to the ship, she doesn’t ever offer to leave by her own accord, to keep the others safe, and then while she’s on the ship, she escapes, knocks her brother down and holds Mal at gunpoint, commandeering the ship. Haven gets attacked; many die, including children and Book. I guess she was right.
As far as her being apologetic or caring, it's all directed towards keeping Simon safe, her brother, whom is her care taker, watch carefully, it takes Simon getting shot in the BDM for her to act, before that she's still screaming about the Reavers being in her head. And Jubal wouldn’t even be on the ship terrorizing everyone if it wasn’t for her and Simon. Granted she devises a plan to get rid of Jubal, but it’s only to secure a safe place for her and her brother. He needs so much looking after.
In time, I could see River becoming more altruistic and not so much with the self preservation, sacrificing herself for others…hmm…maybe that’s where her character was to evolve, post BDM.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
"Bullet to the brainpan"
I interpret this as River being in a lot of personal pain because of her trauma and wanting to end it, not because she wants to spare anyone else from harm.
Yes, I do think that was primarily it, as I mentioned, but I think I have an additional interpretation to the scene - that she wanted to die not just for herself - based on my overall interpretation of the character.
Quote:
"It isn't safe...for them".
She returns to the ship, she doesn’t ever offer to leave by her own accord, to keep the others safe, and then while she’s on the ship, she escapes, knocks her brother down and holds Mal at gunpoint, commandeering the ship. Haven gets attacked; many die, including children and Book. I guess she was right.
she willingly left with Simon, even after he double checked with her "River, do you want to leave" "It isn't safe....for them" and then it was Mal who brought her back on board...and then chained her to the floor. So....yeah, she wasn't going anywhere. and then her takeover was to make them see the truth. A bit rough, but probably something she needed to do to make them lsiten...and then of course she apologized and seemed a tad ashamed regarding Simon at least, later.
Which I guess brings us to the crux of our disagreement here:
Quote:
As far as her being apologetic or caring, it's all directed towards keeping Simon safe, her brother, whom is her care taker, watch carefully, it takes Simon getting shot in the BDM for her to act, before that she's still screaming about the Reavers being in her head. And Jubal wouldn’t even be on the ship terrorizing everyone if it wasn’t for her and Simon. Granted she devises a plan to get rid of Jubal, but it’s only to secure a safe place for her and her brother. He needs so much looking after.
I do agree with you that Simon is her center, and the one person whom she loves most, but that's not hard to understand. But where I disagree with you is that Simon is the ONLY person she cares or has compassion for. Just her primary, as the same incidentally with Simon.
But she shows plenty of fondness for Kaylee especially, for the Shepherd (returning his book, again somewhat apologetically), and for Mal. She feels the pain of those hurt by Miranda, is horrified by all the death.
Like I said, she's not a manipulative sociopath. I see her circle getting bigger though, once she's not always constantly overcome by everything screaming in her head, and is better able to operate a little more normally.
You seem to think she is only concerned for hers (and Simon's) preservation, right? I think I might meet you in the middle and say it's probable that's her primary concern. But I think even during the series and film, she doesn't lack at least some of that concern for the rest of the crew...
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...but she shows plenty of fondness for Kaylee especially, for the Shepherd (returning his book, again somewhat apologetically), and for Mal. She feels the pain of those hurt by Miranda, is horrified by all the death.
Agree, but like any 17 year old, she is focused on herself and thinks about herself, first. She may have a fondness for the crew, but she's lacking a significant amount of interpersonal skills. She never inquires about their overall being, her interactions with them are limited to shows of slight empathy (she does provide Inara with this in TLB) and a few metaphoric phrases which they perceive as random crazy talk.
Like I said, if the show would have continued, River's circle of care would have widened even beyond the crew. Her character would have still battled with inner demons, but at the same time, we would have seen more of the girl, as in the end of the movie. Just my take, and no I don’t think she would have ever been completely healed; it would have ruined the character.
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Well I don't really disagree with any of that :) I was just disagreeing with your disagreement that she doesn't have a kind heart underneath it all, and isn't capable of feeling remorse for her actions. But it doesn't seem like you fully disagree with that, just that you maybe interpret her as being further on one end of the spectrum (at this stage in time, i.e., the end of the BDM) than I do, and there's room for varying opinions there:)
Anyway, I'm off to get wasted, so thanks for the discussion and have an awesome New Years!
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