Someone please break Joss' fingers! [spoiler]
POSTED BY: Toadsmoothy
UPDATED: Saturday, January 1, 2011 01:04
VIEWED: 40555
PAGE 11 of 13
I think Serenity: Float Out demonstrates that Joss Whedon has not planned where to go next with the Serenity story. Whedon subcontracted the writing of the comic to never-wrote-a-comic-before Patton Oswalt. It is a eulogy to Wash. Snooze-fest. Boring. I've been to funerals where everyone says the sweetest, nicest things about the wicked rascal who died in a motorcycle crash while being pursued by the police. A Serenity comic should not be like that. We want the lowdown on Wash. He was no angel.
Serenity: Float Out could have been spiced up by having the pregnant woman carrying Wash's baby NOT be Zoe, but Wash's old girlfriend. Zoe thinks Wash was cheating on her. (He wasn't.) Zoe thinks Wash was only looking for someone like his old girlfriend. (He did love Zoe.) Zoe learns that Wash ran away from the old girlfriend when Old Girl started talking about raising a family. All this discovery occurs between the eulogizing of Wash's piloting skills.
The whole crew is listening to whispering Zoe and Old Girl. And every time Jayne opens his mouth about Wash, Zoe punches him in the face. That's entertainment!
And at the end of Serenity: Float Out, Zoe is back in her bunk on Serenity, knowing that Wash will have his child. And Zoe never will.
It looks to me like Joss Whedon didn't have even a vague outline for Serenity 2 and 3 before he finished writing Serenity. Five years later, he still doesn't. I assume he intended to haphazardly throw together an outline only after Serenity was a big success and he was counting his money. See Pirates of the Caribbean 2 & 3 for an example of that. Those last two Pirate stories were messy piles of poop, which showed Joss Whedon that successful movies don't need a story. Success requires Johnny Depp. A coherent story is optional.
"Pirates of the Caribbean 3" Review by Ask A Ninja.
The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Given that Oswalt (a huge scifi geek) approached Whedon and asked to do acomic, rather than Whedon seeking out first time writers, your assumption is.... a reach at best.
And really, you think he should have outlined further movies, with no prospects of having them made? Rather unfairly demanding of you. Especially since doing so would be not only a waste of time, but also probably painful for Joss.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I don't care if it made money at the box office, because it was mainly the Star Trek title that did that,
Uh, if that's the case, why was it the most successful Trek film ever, even in adjusted dollars??
Your statement literally makes zero sense, other than as the rantings of a bitter fanboy.
If there was even a kernel of truth to your claim, the prior couple Treks would not have been flops.... and yet, they were.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:It was Patton Oswalt pitching various story ideas to Joss Whedon. Has Joss run dry? It should have been Joss pitching to Patton like Serenity: A Shepherd's Tale, where Joss Whedon has the outline of a story (the skeleton?) and gives it to his brother to flesh out. Joss knew where A Shepherd's Tale was going. {My eloquently short summary: Book was always a double-crossing, murdering, torturing badass. He changed, a little, once he found religion. }
Originally posted by Storymark:
Given that Oswalt (a huge scifi geek) approached Whedon and asked to do a comic, rather than Whedon seeking out first time writers, your assumption is.... a reach at best.
And really, you think he should have outlined further movies, with no prospects of having them made? Rather unfairly demanding of you. Especially since doing so would be not only a waste of time, but also probably painful for Joss.
Getting back to Serenity 2 & 3: It's not that hard to write 500 words to describe where the trilogy is going. But if Joss had no idea, even 50 words is an impossible burden.
I think Joss hasn't written the 500 words because he has not wanted to know where he is going with Serenity. Making decisions puts limits on possibilities and that's too adult. Let studio execs be the adults and Joss be creative. With the example of Pirates of the Caribbean 2 & 3 (probably 4, too), not knowing is no real handicap to making money, so long as you got Johnny Depp as the leading man.
Once Nathan Fillion learns how to swagger and prance like Johnny Depp, Joss Whedon won't need to know where Serenity 2 is going. Any half-ass space pirate story will be pure gold. Yo Ho Ho and a bottle of rum.
The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I dislike Abrams' Trek not because I am a bitter fanboy. Even though I have enjoyed various incarnations of that 'verse over the years I'm not a Trekker or Trekkie upset about the breaking of canon. I simply thought it was a terrible movie. Writing, acting, plot inconsistencies, everything. And it probably made more money than any other Trek film because as the general state of the entertainment business has proven time and time again, people like crap.
No personal offense intended to anyone else who happened to like it, I just didn't.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by two:
I think Serenity: Float Out demonstrates that Joss Whedon has not planned where to go next with the Serenity story.
I respectfully disagree... sort of. :)
Joss has stated previously that he had a very loose seven-year outline for FIREFLY, with the storyline of SERENITY roughly analogous to season two.
Having said that, Joss is always character-based, and while the vast majority of his work is very commercial, I think the problem with the future of SERENITY is one of medium. Some of the stories he wants to tell will work in a movie, but others will only work in a "more intimate" medium.
I see that as the common trend in what we've seen since 2005:
FLOATOUT is an "intimate" story that gives one huge character reveal: Zoe is pregnant with Wash's daughter. Why reveal that in the comic? First, without Zoe's appearance, the actual 'Verse is very limited (some stories about a dead guy, told by characters we don't care about). Second: Joss knows that if he picks the larger story up again, enough time will have passed since SERENITY that Zoe will no longer be pregnant. So, he gave the fans a nice little Easter egg in FLOATOUT.
THE SHEPHERD'S TALE is similar. Any theoretical sequel might reference Book, but a movie is not likely to make much use of the character (with only 110-150 pages to play with and still a large cast, Joss needs to focus on those who are still here). Thus, while the shepherd's tale could have played out as a satisfying television episode (or across a series of episodes) it has no place in a movie).
BETTER DAYS takes place pre-SERENITY (and even pre-TLB). It introduces some interesting new elements, but I don't think it's enough to pin a movie on, so, again, we get it in a comic.
So what IS left for movies? With a rough seven year plotline (of which we have seen two-sevenths), I'm sure Joss has at least ten or a dozen different ideas for SERENITY II... but it's a constant juggling game of "Is this idea commercial enough to merit movie sequels of its own?" and "If I tell a story from theoretical Season Four, what do I do with the good stuff from Season Three?" and "Dang, I'm not sure if Summer Glau is still young enough to play Season Three River!" and a half dozen considerations I'm sure I haven't thought of.
Although it's a far more complicated situation, the story goes that in the late 1970s, George Lucas has two different ideas for a STAR WARS sequel, based on how much money he might have available. The more ambitious concept included the entire cast, multiple locations, and massive battles, and proved to be the heart of EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. The less-ambitious, low-budget idea involved a smaller cast (Luke, Leia, the droids, and limited appearances by Vader), mostly on a single planet, with no major battles. That idea was handed over to become the novel SPLINTER OF THE MIND'S EYE.
Quote:
Whedon subcontracted the writing of the comic to never-wrote-a-comic-before Patton Oswalt. It is a eulogy to Wash. Snooze-fest. Boring. I've been to funerals where everyone says the sweetest, nicest things about the wicked rascal who died in a motorcycle crash while being pursued by the police. A Serenity comic should not be like that. We want the lowdown on Wash. He was no angel.
For the record, I agree with you that FLOATOUT was a snooze-fest. Honestly, though, I think that the story was less about Wash and more about the three dudes talking about him. Has the comic (and they) been more well-received, I suspect we might have an ongoing Floatout series, allowing Oswalt, Joss, and others to explore the 'Verse without telling us what happens to the crew of Serenity next (and therefore keeping all options open).
Quote:
Serenity: Float Out could have been spiced up by having the pregnant woman carrying Wash's baby NOT be Zoe, but Wash's old girlfriend.
...
And at the end of Serenity: Float Out, Zoe is back in her bunk on Serenity, knowing that Wash will have his child. And Zoe never will.
But apparently that was ne
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I dislike Abrams' Trek not because I am a bitter fanboy. Even though I have enjoyed various incarnations of that 'verse over the years I'm not a Trekker or Trekkie upset about the breaking of canon. I simply thought it was a terrible movie. Writing, acting, plot inconsistencies, everything. And it probably made more money than any other Trek film because as the general state of the entertainment business has proven time and time again, people like crap.
No personal offense intended to anyone else who happened to like it, I just didn't.
That's cool, to each their own. I know a lot of people didn't like it, but a whole lot did - many of them non Trek fans. So, saying it's success it merely down to the name is... inaccurate. And just because you didn't like it, hardly makes it crap.
"People like crap" is an easy go-to when you don't like what others do, and there is often a kernel of truth. But things don't become hugely popular without doing some things very right - even if it doesn't work for you.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by two:
It was Patton Oswalt pitching various story ideas to Joss Whedon. Has Joss run dry? It should have been Joss pitching to Patton like Serenity: A Shepherd's Tale, where Joss Whedon has the outline of a story (the skeleton?) and gives it to his brother to flesh out.
So what. His giving a friend a shot hardly means the well has run dry. But you do love jumping to wild conclusions, so I know you'll just come up with something wilder to rationalize.
As for your comments of Serenity 2 oand 3... you act as if the man should never do anything but think about Firefly. I don't think he's quiate as hung up as the more obsessive fans.
And the Depp fixation... yeah, whatever.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I dredged up Pirates of the Caribbean and Johnny Depp, the charismatic Sea Pirate, because Nathan Fillion is a charismatic Space Pirate. In Hollywood, movie success depends on who's playing the leading man more than what dialog is spoken. Sadly, Fillion was Mister Unknown in 2005, but not anymore. Fortunately for Pirates 3, Depp was a celebrity. Using Depp was smart, compensating for a bad story with stupid dialog. Or stupid story with bad dialog.
Originally posted by GWEK:
As a third-generation screenwriter, I'm pretty sure there are very few lessons that the PotC movies could teach him.
Other than giving you an opportunity to bash the movies (I do agree, by the way, that they were grabage), I'm not sure why they're germaine to Joss and SERENITY.Quote:
Success requires Johnny Depp. A coherent story is optional.
That's Hollywood, baby. Stars sell movies on their first week, maybe the second.
But strong scripts are what keep them in the theater, making money, well after that.
I want to pick apart one very specific item where I doubt Joss Whedon has a plan for Serenity - he's turning River into a murderer. Or serial killer, if you prefer. So far she has killed Joss in the R_Tam_Sessions. She killed 3 more in War Stories. She killed 1 in Serenity:The Other Half. She killed 6 more, last month, in Serenity:Downtime. She killed a heap of Reavers. Did I miss any? Where is Joss going with River?
River's story seems to be drifting toward exciting but meaningless massacres. Is River to become a killing machine whenever the story needs a jolt of caffeine? Or will she eventually specialize in killing Reavers because it is her wholesome destiny? As Buffy is to demons, will River be to Reavers? If the future is like the past, Serenity will be full of thrill killings by River because it is fun for the audience. I suppose bloody murder is the Hollywood default when nobody has planned the story far enough ahead. When you don't know where the story should go next, kill somebody. Or have a fight. That's Entertainment!
The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I thought it was clever nonsense myself. Not Science Fiction, but, like, a better version of Spock's Brain, or somesuch.
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I dislike Abrams' Trek not because I am a bitter fanboy. Even though I have enjoyed various incarnations of that 'verse over the years I'm not a Trekker or Trekkie upset about the breaking of canon. I simply thought it was a terrible movie. Writing, acting, plot inconsistencies, everything. And it probably made more money than any other Trek film because as the general state of the entertainment business has proven time and time again, people like crap.
No personal offense intended to anyone else who happened to like it, I just didn't.
Watchable, at any rate.
The laughing Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME