The Great Jayne Debate!
POSTED BY: kef
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 17:05
VIEWED: 37090
PAGE 11 of 14
Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
Idefix
and sorry for bad english. it isn't my native language.
Your English is excellent. Truly.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Oops! Double post. 
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Idefix:
and on my second watching after reading this long thread I noticed something: Jayne said to Simon there was a change of plan and they had to meet out the back in 5 minutes. and when they came out the back door the feds waited there for them.
and then later on when Mal had locked Jayne in the airlock he asked him what he was doing at the back door. and concluded from that that Jayne had called the feds.
Since I had no new episode to watch on Friday, I watched the only episode I have on tape... Ariel. And I noticed the same thing you did. I actually meant to get on here and say something about it on Saturday, but real life got in the way. :)
The conclusion I came to was that at the moment they left the exam room, he was ABSOLUTELY going to turn them in. If he ever changed his mind after that, I can't say. But the "change of plans" he announced had nothing at all to do with Mal or avoiding the feds, and everything to do with turning the Tams in.
______________
The next time you decide to stab me in the back have the guts to do it to my face.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
To Idefix: Your English is fine.
Yes, I too re-watched the episode, and noted the "Five minutes," "out the back." If Jayne had changed his mind about turning in the siblings, he could have continued with Mal's original plan (up to the point that the Feds, robbed of their living booty, would interfere).
m.
------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Make this the next Poll Question darn it!
Just please don't use the pseudo-word unbetray. Maybe it's the anal english teacher in me coming to the fore but it's driving me NUTZ!
Come on, poll question! Who's with me!?!?!?
It's a bird, it's a plane...
No it's a guy in blue tights and a red cape...
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Look, forget all this stuff about front vs back, it's irrelevant, because we have no clue where Jayne was expecting the Feds to be waiting.
The real question that matters, is WHY did Jayne rush them out early? What makes the most sense, given what we are shown?
The "Jayne is an unrepentant bastard" camp seems to think it was a calculated move so he would have time to collect his reward, and rejoin the Serenity crew. Personally, I think this is a ridiculous assertion. If you turned in a pair of highly wanted fugitives, would you expect to be able to collect your massive reward (from a large beaurocracy, no less) and be on your way in a mere 15 minutes? I don't think so. Also, if Jayne suddenly became "very wealthy" as he expected to, do you think he would go back to being hired help with a ragtag outfit like Serenity? Again, highly doubtful. This was a one way ticket for Jayne. You don't sell out your crewmates to the authorities and then go back to work with them.
I'm not saying the above scenario is IMPOSSIBLE, only that it's a rather large assumption (that he needed the extra time for himself), which is NOT supported or suggested by anything in the script. And this is a very well written show, I think they would have addressed such an important point.
So all of this brings us back to... WHY would he rush them out? What is the simplest, most reasonable explanation? Why unnecessarily arouse suspicions by changing plans? Surely the arrest would've gone smoothly if they had stayed the full time, and Jayne would not look suspicious, since he was just following the plan. BUT... Jayne changed the plan. He KNEW this would make it look later like he had advance knowledge of the Feds. (Don't you think Simon will ask him later why the plan was changed? I think this will be discussed in an upcoming episode, unless it's cancelled of course) He deliberately blew his own cover, so to speak, in order to try and get them out before the Feds were set up... even though he probably suspected it was too late.
Once they were caught, he saw a way to save his own skin and make a bundle, so of course he tried to play along with the original deal. Just because he had a change of heart doesn't mean he suddenly became the noble "one for all, all for one, go down with the ship" type. Jayne still comes first to Jayne, and probably always will. That's his character. Self serving. But not heartless. Once he was doublecrossed by the Feds, he came to realize they would have a better chance of escape if they worked together, as it proved to. River's comment makes perfect sense in this context. No Christmas (reward), for anybody. Only coal (death).
And at the end, in the airlock. Mal was going to kill him, but didn't when Jayne asked Mal to lie for him. Why? Because this was the ONE thing that Jayne could've possibly said that convinced Mal of the one truth that mattered: That Jayne was TRULY ashamed of what he did.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Morwynd, I think you have it exactly right!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Adam answered!!!
Quote:
From: ADAM_BALDWIN 2:36 am
To: ALL (1 of 3)
2499.1
Happy Thanksgiving to all:
Apparently there has been an ongoing debate with regard to Jayne's "unbetrayal" of River and Simon in "Ariel"... Well, I asked our fearless leader J.W. yesterday if I could put this confusion to rest. He said, "Go ahead monkey, dance for the geeks!"
So, I hereby offer to all (with a notable nod to I.L.J. from Fireflyfans.net), the official poop: Jayne never unbetrayed Simon and River, he simply redouble-crossed the low down dirty double-crossing fed who was intending to keep Jayne's "RE-WARD" for himself.
Jayne is a mercenary after all, but he's our mercenary, and that's why I love the petulant child, "box-dropping man-ape gone wrong, thrillin' he-roics thing," that he is... A work in progress.
I hope this has been cared about. 'Cuz I'm a powerful slow typer!
Peace,
A.B.
oh happy day...and he even used the word "unbetray," hehe. The actors on this show are just too cool...
http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/messages/?msg=2499.1
Warrick: You didn't have to wound that man.
Mal: Yeah, I know. It was just funny.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Sorry, but it just doesn't matter. Asking the people who made the show about something that's actually unknown and mysterious is one thing, and this is another. What was shown was plain, simple, and straightforward. When Andromeda gave us "Dance of the Mayflies", one of the writers assured everyone that it wasn't a possession episode. When it actually went on the air, it was an obvious possession episode. Did ANYONE believe that it wasn't? No, because it was. Actions speak louder than words, so you have to believe the creation itself, whether or not it conflicts with what the creator SAYS (s)he created.
There is exactly ONE possible reason for Jayne to rush them out. He's already arranged for the capture, we know that. It's going to happen no matter what. Changing the plans means changing the plans! There are no two ways about this; you don't try to sneak someone out of a trap if you still intend them to get caught, you just sit back and watch the trap spring on them. This is a point that has been repeated a few times now by people who see what was plainly, simply, straightforwardly presented on screen for what it is, and has YET to be in any way explained away (or even an attempt made) by those insisting on something else.
Believing the actor who played Jayne saying that what was shown didn't really happen is like believing Harrison Ford if he were to say that Han Solo didn't really shoot the bounty hunter under the table at Mos Eisley, or believing Sean connery if he were to say that James Bond never actually ordered a shaken-not-stirred drink. He just plain DID and that's all there is to it!
(And it's even worse when the creator of the show in question seems to have a reputation for messing with people's minds just because he thinks it's funny...)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
does that sound weird, or is it just me?
sorry, I don't say you're weird, never would. but if JW said Jayne never wanted to unbetray the Tams and AB posts that, saying nothing about objecting to it. than that has to be true, doesn't it? seems to me they wanted us to know the true intend of their work and that should mean something. it does to me.
maybe you should ask why he rushed them out the back, when he should have made plans for the feds meeting them up the front later? maybe they know of a reason. if it is good written TV there should be a reason for it. they just didn't tell us. maybe it was cut from the EP.
but if you don't really want to know what they intended to show us but believe that it's right what you interpret into what they showed us then believe it and be happy. seems to me like Book saying to River the bible's not about making sense. seemed a bit stupid to me that comment. everything should be about making sense, or else it's just gibberish.
but maybe you're right and the work of art is all about itself and not about what the artist wanted it to be.
just my way of seeing it. I'm happy with the explanation, but I thought it was the 'right' one all along. unbetraying never occured to me. though it was a nice thought when I read it here.
Idefix
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME