Someone is WRONG on the Internet!
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Saturday, July 20, 2024 14:12
VIEWED: 4231
PAGE 6 of 8
Thanks Niki, you summarised what I feel so I don't need to go over that again.
CTS, I don't see all legislation as forcing people to do things at gun point. legilsation is simply a set of laws arrived at via a variety of different means. laws can be bad and they can be upheld punitively and with force. I'm sure there are many countries where this happens. I don't always agree with all the laws that are made here, but living in a democratic country, I have the a voice in changing laws that I disagree with..maybe not always a very big voice, but I do have one.
I don't see all legislation being equal. There is legislation which definitely infringes on our individual rights, but we also have laws that protect our free speech, right to trial, sets out the limits to our governments,and law enforcement agencies, gives us the ability to see juistice done when we've been wronged in some way.
Like Niki said, it's a rare day that you get marched away at gunpoint...not unless you yourself are committing an act of violence.
Maybe US police are more militant and trigger happy. As I said, some police are very mild in some countries and some are super brutal...but that is about law enforcement and countries do that differently.
Maybe my view of extreme is more extreme than yours. I don't believe in discussing stuff around violence...it's not negotiable as far as I am concerned, that includes police violence incidentally. I am happy to state my opinion - stop hurting that person, but I'm not about to find middle ground on that issue.
I've believe that its a decent legal system that prevents a country from becoming a place where the gun rules, not the other way around.
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Niki
I bothered to read yours. If you won't read my posts, than I have wasted my time trying to help.
Your not reading my posts means you totally missed the humor of the situation. In blaming the nazis, and rejecting my scenario, you were in fact blaming a big govt. socialist and defending international corporations. I thought that was humorous, as much as Nazis can be humorous.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Magon
I was simply pointing out the issues and times in which negotiation could have been had with Nazi Germany.
You stated that it couldn't be done, as if it were a religious belief, and seem to see no interest in why or how or when it actually *could* be done
Firstly, please show me where I said we should never have negotiated with Nazi Germany. Really, please pull up that post.
Secondly, there were negotiations with Nazi Germany, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement up until they broke their promise about invading any further countries when they marched into Poland, incidentally one of the many non German speaking nations, including France, Norwary, Holland and Belgium nad Russia that were invaded. So much for them only being interested in Germanic speaking countries. Chamberlain has gone done in history, rather unkindly, as the man who 'appeased Hitler'.
Thirdly, the Soviets also negotiated with the Nazis, until they broke that treaty as well and invaded Russia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
Fourthly, we did negotiate with Stalin and the Soviets. Ever heard of Yalta? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference
You can see how profitable it was to negotiate with tyrants.
Your knowledge of history is really quite poor. You take some basic facts and extrapolate to a level of nonsense, something that I have seen you do numerous times in other posts. Where do you get your material, from some holocaust denying website put up by PN?
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
For what it's worth, I read your argument, DT and found it very illuminating.
I have studied genocides throughout history. I won't claim to be a thorough historian, but the little that I understood from history, I have found one common thread in all the genocides.
It's not ideology or hatred or superiority. It's economics.Quote:I LOL'ed on that one too. You can't win, DT. You can't win.
Lol. I'm sorry. Allow me to appreciate the absurdity of the situation. I try to pin evil on international corporations, and you insist on pinning it on socialist big government. I think I woke up in bizarro world.
--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
CTS
You caught that one. Now that I see your post I wonder if Niki skipped my post entirely, and only saw that line because it was in your post. That explains why she didn't understand the concept.
This makes my life very simple: If Niki doesn't read my posts than my many strategic tips on how to elect democrats who agree with her rather than support ones who she doesn't like are completely lost on her, and I am wasting my time.
Genocide is part economics, but it's partly primal and evolutionary. It's alpha tribe exterminating beta tribe before they mix with alpha tribe, or alpha tribe encouraging gamma tribe because they see it as so inferior that they can enslave it with ease.
Usually this primal drive is manipulated by misinformation, which seems to shortcircuit evolution. It's one of the tricks of primal psychology.
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Quote:I don't understand this analogy because "beating the crap out of you" never happened. The Nazi DT debated with did not beat the crap out of him.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
This was always a hypothetical. The Nazi you were debating with supported the deportation of Jews to death camps. Would you still debate and find a common ground?
Quote:
Now let's consider original Nazis. Talking to an original Nazi when Nazis were in power is completely hypothetical. You can ASSUME that he would have just beat the crap out of you rather than debate, but you don't KNOW that. Therefore to preclude all hypothetical debate with a Nazi based on the assumption that he would have certainly beat the crap out of you is a bit premature.
No, he may not have beaten the crap out of you, but he would have reported you to the Gestapo. People who opposed the Nazi regime were executed or sent to the camps. You would have wasted your breath. Ever heard of the White Rose, young German student movement, non violent? They were exectuted for treason because they printed leaflets opposing the Nazis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose
They're famous because they're young and pretty and middle class, but they were amongst many who died trying to argue with the Nazis. the first thing the Nazis did upon coming to power was remove by extreme force their opposition. Opposition, debate was not allowed. Obedience was enforced.
Now that's what I call using a gun to force laws.
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Magon
Not negotiating with Nazis because they were unreasonable was your whole premise. You started out by saying it was impossible.
1) None of these predates 1938, so you missed my point or didn't read any of my posts
2) The Munich Agreement is hardly a negotiation, it's concession. I detailed how I would negotiate, which was hard. This was a farce. No one asked anything of Germany, it was an elaborate rolling over to avoid going to war.
3) The Soviet Non-aggression pact was a wartime treaty, not a negotiation.
4) Yalta? You have to be kidding me. First, that's almost after the war, not before, that's hardly going to prevent the war, let alone all that went before it. Second, it was not a negotiation to try to limit soviet abuses, it was trading off the spoils of war.
The whole concept of diplomacy is to prevent disasters, not to settle who gets the spoils after everyone is dead.
Quote:
Your knowledge of history is really quite poor. You take some basic facts and extrapolate to a level of nonsense, something that I have seen you do numerous times in other posts. Where do you get your material, from some holocaust denying website put up by PN?
Oh, that's just classic. The left is truly made of venom. Did you miss the part where I said my father's side of the family was exterminated in the holocaust? Did you think it was at all possible that what you posted might be at all offensive? No of course not, the left can't offend. I keep forgetting. And yes, history is one of my subjects of study. I know a lot about the subject and try to be objective and debate.
I've had enough abuse now, and must get back to work.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Where do you get your material, from some holocaust denying website put up by PN?
...Did you miss the part where I said my father's side of the family was exterminated in the holocaust? Did you think it was at all possible that what you posted might be at all offensive?
When I posted on the "legislation = violence" thread, I hadn't gotten around to seeing this yet. This is horrid. I'm sorry DT. I don't blame you for leaving at all.
When you get back, you and I should debate your pro-Israeli position sometime.
--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
No, he may not have beaten the crap out of you, but he would have reported you to the Gestapo. People who opposed the Nazi regime were executed or sent to the camps. You would have wasted your breath. Ever heard of the White Rose, young German student movement, non violent? They were exectuted for treason because they printed leaflets opposing the Nazis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose
Thank you for mentioning this - ever since stumbling upon this tidbit while trying to sort out fact from fiction in my public school "history" classes (cause it DAMN sure wasn't mentioned there) the WRS has been one of my moral idols.
That they failed makes their effort no less valuable, and it was the study of WHY they failed, in combination with the work of Alice Miller, which lead me to the core strategy of what I do.
http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/adolf_hitler.html
Now consider that around thirty years ago, we chose to emulate those EXACT SAME methods of child-rearing...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisonous_pedagogy
All else that follows is obvious.
Quote:
“As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educator’s threat and by the father’s rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policeman’s club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.”
Boris Sidis, from “A lecture on the abuse of the fear instinct in early education” in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1919.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Quote:
“As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educator’s threat and by the father’s rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policeman’s club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.”
Boris Sidis, from “A lecture on the abuse of the fear instinct in early education” in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1919.
Wow, that is a fantastic quotation.
--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
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You should read the rest of his work, then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Sidis
This... for lack of a better phrase, fundamental disagreement over pyschology goes all the way back to Plato and the notion that people are inherently evil and need to be controlled by force "for their own good", which was bullshit the day it was spouted - and is always proposed by those offering or demanding that control, for reasons having NOTHING to do with "your own good" at all.
In fact, Alice Miller had a rightful and passionate derision for that phrase, going so far as to title one of her books in that fashion.
http://www.amazon.com/Your-Own-Good-Child-Rearing-Violence/dp/03745226
93
But this fight, between Rosseau-Kropotkinism...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RousseauWasRight
And Hobbsiean cynicism...
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HobbesWasRight
This has been going on prettymuch ever since there were PEOPLE - even in my own collection I have works lambasting that "beat them into obediance" shit going back to the 1750s.
And every one of those authors up till Spock and Miller have been vilified, despised, crushed right out of history and cast in the dirt by the powers that be, because the very NOTION that there is another way, that their even COULD be, is a threat to all that they have, all that they want...
And now with the work of Doc Perry, and the Childtrauma institute showing physical, scientific PROOF that the Plato-Hobbes concept is a lie, and a tremendously damaging one - they're *finished*, CTS, it's just a matter of time, is all.
My own work is simply an effort to hasten the process before we destroy ourselves or our planet beyond hope of recovery, and all that I do serves that purpose.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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