Someone is WRONG on the Internet!
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Saturday, July 20, 2024 14:12
VIEWED: 4231
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DT, I think there is a time for not entering into discussion - for example when a person or group is using violence to force others to do their bidding/ or for the hell of it. I think you can enter discussions when there is an agreed end to violence, otherwise you stand the very real chance of endorsing their actions by association.
I think your reference to the modern day nazi misses the point - modern day nazis are pretty much universally abhored misfits with a third reich fetish - they are such losers they would probably have been exterminated by the real nazis. The Nazis that I refer to were powerful and popular and had a very real chance at world domination. Therefore having a debate and sitting down and watching Life is Beautiful or something similiar would not have happened...mainly because like many totalitarian regimes, you had to agree or facew the consequencess.
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Magon
1) There is always time for discussion. Fighting starts when talking stops.
2) I had the dishonor to have a conversation with a man who ran an SS camp in WWII. He was pathetic. He spend his later years trolling for gay prostitutes and dying of syphilis.
3) That's fairly exceptional. Most old world Nazis were much more reasonable than their modern counterparts, because they had no idea that they were supporting the holocaust.
4) We couldn't have watched Life is Beautiful because it hadn't been made. If this conversation had been had at the time, it never would have had to have been. The fact was that no world power was interested in saving the Jews.
5) The Nazis did not really have a shot at world domination. They had a chance at "capture all of the flags for a moment" They had no control over the vast majority of govts. they controlled, and their domination relied on allying themselves to Japan who was clearly much more powerful than they were.
6) The majority opinion of Nazis was that they should not own anything that did not speak German, but they were afraid that the other nations of the world would economically manipulate Germany to destroy it as they had in the past. Their real enemy was not jews or other nations, but economic influence. Iran is in a very similar situation right now.
7) The spread of Nazi Germany and the saving of the jews, as well as many more Russians and Poles could have been easily accomplish through an economic treaty that granted them economic self determination. The reality is that western powers were salivating at the idea that Germans and Russians would exterminate each other in a genocidal war with a little push, and might cleanse the earth of its jewish infection in the process.
Top among all world leaders ruminating this wet dream nightly was Winston Churchill. FDR would have joined Churchill in bed if he could have. He was too busy focusing on his own Manifest Destiny empire of the Pacific.
I'm pretty much certain of these last two, the last is given away by the US strategy to disband the Japanese army once we had won the war. My brother calls this the stupidest military decision in US history, and I'm force to agree. It created not only the Communist and Cultural revolution, and the following wars in Korea, Vietnam, and Cambodia, and half a dozen more still ongoing, not to mention the disaster in Indonesia, it also gave rise to North Korea, and far more importantly, Communist China which would eventually lead to the end of the US as the dominant world power.
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Quote:That's funny. Because "using violence to force others to do their bidding" is exactly what legislation is all about. And exactly why I oppose GW legislation. By your standards, I probably shouldn't enter into a discussion with yourself.
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
DT, I think there is a time for not entering into discussion - for example when a person or group is using violence to force others to do their bidding/ or for the hell of it.
Very interesting.
Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
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Quote:I agree completely.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
1) There is always time for discussion. Fighting starts when talking stops.
I think talking is especially important for those who value ending violence and force.
How else can you end it?
Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
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Quote:I spent some time (several days) talking to a German veteran of WWII. I had never seen things from that point of view before. He had been drafted. He had no choice but to put on that uniform and fight. He said that from time to time, they would hear rumors of extermination camps. At the time, everyone dismissed those claims as urban legends, hoaxes, paranoid nutter conspiracy theories. Their government was many things, but it wouldn't do THAT. The few people who believed those stories were wackos of the lunatic fringe.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
3) That's fairly exceptional. Most old world Nazis were much more reasonable than their modern counterparts, because they had no idea that they were supporting the holocaust.
I can see how that could happen. I think to paint them all with one broad demonization brush is not quite accurate.
Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Magon
1) There is always time for discussion. Fighting starts when talking stops.
Some things are non negotiable as I stated above...
Quote:
3) That's fairly exceptional. Most old world Nazis were much more reasonable than their modern counterparts, because they had no idea that they were supporting the holocaust.
Nazis and most Germans were au fait with getting rid of the Jews and other 'undesirables'. They participated at all levels of society in persecuting Jews. The old argument that they had no idea of the death camps has been fairly extensively disproven - in so much as it was common knowledge that Jews were being sent east and not returning, that slave labour was acceptable (for Poles and Slavs and Gypsies as well)> Nazi philosophy was quite open on 'eutheniasing' those not worthy, the disabled etc. Jews were routinely hanged and murdered in very public ways. So it wasn't a great leap to make, even if the Final Solution wasn't publicised openly. Current nazis hold no significant power, they may be objectional loonies, but they're not about to invade Poland..
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4) We couldn't have watched Life is Beautiful because it hadn't been made.
Really? you surprise me. Here was me thinking it was a documentary made by Leni Riefinstahl.
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5) The Nazis did not really have a shot at world domination.
You don't think much of Europe, Asia, the Pacific, North Africa would not have constituted world domination? The Axis was immensely powerful. If Germany hadn't invaded Russia, but continued the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, much of the world would have been in deep shit. Thankfully, Hitler was a pretty terrible tactician and that if he had listen to his generals and not been so obsessed with annihilating the Jewish and Slavic population, they would have had a real chance.
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6) The majority opinion of Nazis was that they should not own anything that did not speak German,
You've lost me on that...are you talking about other countries? have you not heard of the Nazi idea of 'Lebensraum'...living space. Their idea was to invade other countries, particularly where the 'subhumans' such as slavic people lived, enslave or exterminate the population so that ordinary Germans could populate those areas. They wanted the land, but the people who lived there were expendable.
Quote:
7) The spread of Nazi Germany and the saving of the jews, as well as many more Russians and Poles could have been easily accomplish through an economic treaty that granted them economic self determination.
At what point do you think a Treaty should have been entered into? After Hitler was in power or before? Because Adolph had his plans laid out pretty clearly for the Jewish people in Mein Kampf
Quote:
The reality is that western powers were salivating at the idea that Germans and Russians would exterminate each other in a genocidal war with a little push, and might cleanse the earth of its jewish infection in the process.
Again, when are you talking about? Once Germany reached its pact with Russia and began invading, much of the world was pretty anxious.
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Top among all world leaders ruminating this wet dream nightly was Winston Churchill. FDR would have joined Churchill in bed if he could have. He was too busy focusing on his own Manifest Destiny empire of the Pacific.
Yeah, well I have a few problems with Churchill, but I think I can safely say that he well onto the threat that the Nazis posed fairly early on - much before Roosevelt, and wanted to go to war with the Soviets after Germany was defeated, but the general population was pretty curdled on the whole war business.
Damn, a long post.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
That's funny. Because "using violence to force others to do their bidding" is exactly what legislation is all about. And exactly why I oppose GW legislation. By your standards, I probably shouldn't enter into a discussion with yourself.
Very interesting.
I've never really understood that idea that legislation = being forced at gunpoint
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gorram double post
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:I agree completely.
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
1) There is always time for discussion. Fighting starts when talking stops.
I think talking is especially important for those who value ending violence and force.
How else can you end it?
Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
Let me give you an example. If you and someone else have an argument about, say GW, and to get their point across they start to beat the crap out of you. Do you keep trying to debate GW with them, or do you get them to stop in anyway you can - including
- ordering them to stop (not debating)
- defending yourself with force if necessary
- running away.
When the violence has stopped, you may start the debate again, but you'd be pretty clear that being beaten up is NON NEGOTIABLE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:
]I spent some time (several days) talking to a German veteran of WWII. I had never seen things from that point of view before. He had been drafted. He had no choice but to put on that uniform and fight. He said that from time to time, they would hear rumors of extermination camps. At the time, everyone dismissed those claims as urban legends, hoaxes, paranoid nutter conspiracy theories. Their government was many things, but it wouldn't do THAT. The few people who believed those stories were wackos of the lunatic fringe.
I can see how that could happen. I think to paint them all with one broad demonization brush is not quite accurate.
I think that a lot of Germans from that era have done a bit of revising of their own. It would be a brave and stupid man who would say, "oh yeah, we knew about the death camps, but we all hated the Jews any anyway we made a lot of money purloining their stuff once they were carted away"
I'm sure there were many Germans who did not support the Nazi position on the Jewish people nad there were Nazis who thought that Hitler was taking things too far, but hatred of the Jews was indoctrinated into the German population - through a very successful propaganda campaign run for many years and particularly through indoctrinating the youth.
Richard J Evans "The Third Reich at War" http://www.amazon.com/Third-Reich-at-War/dp/1594202060 is an excellent account, which makes particular use of primary sources, letters from civilians and soldiers to demonstrate how viciousness and callousness towards other races had been successfully planted within the German psyche of the time.
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