The Great Jayne Debate!

POSTED BY: kef
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 17:05
VIEWED: 37090
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RHEA

Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kef:
So let's say that maybe Jayne didn't know when or where the Feds planned to grab the Tams. He left that up to them. So he tried to rush the Tams out of the HOSPITAL before the Feds swooped down. It still doesn't explain why it took the Feds SO LONG to swoop down after Jayne called to say "we're in", considering that they knew the Tams were coming before they even entered the hospital, and thus had plenty of time to prepare.

There's an easy explanation for that. If I were Jayne I would tell them as little about the plan as possible so that I could control the where/when of the pickup. Why give away everything?

I assumed that Jayne went for the pickup in an open area so as to maximize his own chances of escape if something went wrong.

Of course, I may be crediting Jayne with too many smarts.

KEF

Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by QueenTiye:
One more thought for those who don't want to credit Jayne with any human decency... we don't really have to (I just think that he does have some, and that it shows up in the occassional odd moment).

Jayne could have seen what they did to River and got the creeps. He could have simply decided that he didn't want ANY contact with those Feds at all, and he could have realized that he made a bad deal. So far, I have three reasons for Jayne to commit the un-betrayal:

1. Conscience - he just couldn't do it when he saw what happened to River (oh, and Kef? I think I'm saying something slightly different than what you said before about Jayne - its not that he's so impressed by new medical knowledge of River's condition - it's that he's seeing the reality of it for the first time. For all Jayne knows, River could be a kook all on her own, and Simon just thinks the alliance did that. Or, Jayne could know they did SOMETHING to her, but knowing that they cut open her head and sliced up her brain is a bit more specific. In any event - it's the fact that it's real now, not that it's new information, and that realism is what I meant by "in Jayne's face," not that you could see a particular change of expression on his face. Sorry for the confusion.)

2. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's brains are not people you want to chance running into, much less purposely meet up with them.

3. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's BRAINS would have no qualms double-dealing.

And mind you... all three of those reasons could be true at the same time.

I don't think that having Jayne not change his mind about turning in the Tams is saying that he doesn't have any human decency. Someone else here had a theory which I like that Jayne in fact thought that he was doing the right thing by turning over the Tams. And I do agree that he was bothered by what he saw in the diagnostic room. And that he felt uncomfortable about turning them over. I just don't think it affected him enough to change his mind.
These are all good points you've made, though, 1-3. I understand what you're saying.

THESKINWALKER

Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:33 PM

Jayne shoulda cut Rivers throat the second she cut him. That backhand shoulda had a blade in it.

As far as what he was thinking durring the whole betrayl ordeal...I was left with a feeling he redeemed himself somewhat. But he was sure more merciful than I woulda been at the beguining.

You just dont mess with a man's Blue Sun shirt.

TINYTIMM

Thursday, November 21, 2002 9:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mopbucket:
As for the whole "assumption" thing. If you've ever done a deconstruction or read any post-modern philosophy you know you can't do anything without making assumptions.

My tax dollars are paying for this?

Jeff
Who hopes ghod helps the next generation.

KEN

Friday, November 22, 2002 10:31 PM

I also think there was no change of heart at the last minute. In part because when they are caught Jayne mentions something about his money to the Fed that double crossed him. If he had a change of heart I don't think he would have asked for his money. Also, if true the Jayne character will have bigger problems as the show goes on thru more episodes.

Unless they give Jayne some socially redeeming characteristics - and soon - he will become a two deminsonal "bad guy" right out of early TV dramas. He will be nothing more than a predicitable paper cut-out villian of no real interest to anyone.

If, however, they give him some redeeming characteristics, some depth, and a history that fleshes out the character, the writers can have a gfield day with inner conflict as the character himself and the audience discovers how he reacts to situations successfully and from time to time unsuccessfully.

Ken

THEGN

Friday, November 22, 2002 11:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Unless they give Jayne some socially redeeming characteristics - and soon - he will become a two deminsonal "bad guy" right out of early TV dramas. He will be nothing more than a predicitable paper cut-out villian of no real interest to anyone.

Yeah, right, Jayne is such a two-dimensional and simplistic character, and of course that explains why there is 94 posts in a single thread within a one week of one episode about one event describing Jayne's character. Clearly it is not the facts that bring you to this opinion, is it?

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

QUEENTIYE

Friday, November 22, 2002 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Unless they give Jayne some socially redeeming characteristics - and soon - he will become a two deminsonal "bad guy" right out of early TV dramas. He will be nothing more than a predicitable paper cut-out villian of no real interest to anyone.

Ken

We are all entitled to our opinions!

As you can see...mine differs from yours - and I believe that we see quite a lot of depth in Jayne already.

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006

TRAGICSTORY

Saturday, November 23, 2002 12:05 AM

My 2 cents: (read worthless opinion)

I believe that Jayne had every intention of turning Simon and River into the "feds" and only freed them because it was in his best intrest too. Had they been seperated, I do not see Jayne attempting to find them and rescue them. The only reason I believe this so strongly is the end scene with Jayne and Mal. Until those last minutes, Jayne does not see S & R as crew members, but as passangers. It is after he realizes this that he understnds what he did is wrong, accepts his inevitable death and asks Mal to cover up his shame. If in future episodes, Jayne treats s & R as passangers instead of crew I will stand corrected. But I do not think that will happen.

EVANS

Saturday, November 23, 2002 2:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Unless they give Jayne some socially redeeming characteristics - and soon - he will become a two deminsonal "bad guy" right out of early TV dramas.

He is already 3-dimensional, despite his being a brute. He may be slowly redeeming himself, living and working with people who care about each other, and about him....He worried about getting pinched in Canton, then had fun there, for a while. The boy's losing his life for Jayne threw Jayne into confusion....In "Out of Gas," he went out of his way to get Mal as much air & comfort as possible, and spent a long second staring at Mal (clearly failing to come up with "goodbye"). Later, he seemed to be jealous of Zoe as she conversed with Mal....In "Shindig," he laughed at Mal's cruel comment to Kaylee, insulted Badger while eating the man's food, cheated at cards, and participated in planning an escape'n'rescue operation. In other words, he had fun.

Jayne shows his thoughts & feelings, brutish and simple though they may appear to be. He is not a begrimed cardboard mannequin.

m.
------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

IDEFIX

Monday, November 25, 2002 2:29 PM

just one little thing I wanted to add to the long debate. and let me say I find it totally cool that there's this really long thread about a fairly new series with fairly new characters. it says something about the quality of this show , don't you think?

so I read this thread on friday and decided to watch the EP again to make sure what I see in it. my first time watching I never thought Jayne might have tried to un-betray (nice word creation) them. I thought he wanted to get the betrayal over with, when he hurried them out the back.

and on my second watching after reading this long thread I noticed something: Jayne said to Simon there was a change of plan and they had to meet out the back in 5 minutes. and when they came out the back door the feds waited there for them.
and then later on when Mal had locked Jayne in the airlock he asked him what he was doing at the back door. and concluded from that that Jayne had called the feds.

so I get the notion that going out back was not in Mals plan. and so I conclude that Jayne wanted to betray them all the time.

that doesn't say he didn't feel bad about it or that he has no heart but I think he made up his plan to get rid of the mad girl and her brother for security and conviniency reasons. he thought he'd do Mal and all aboard Serenity a favour.

and now he knows Mal will take it personally and that was not what he wanted so he'll probably never do it again. and not because he likes them any better now.

Idefix
and sorry for bad english. it isn't my native language.

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