Senators want to know -- 'ghost' detainees

POSTED BY: Honey
UPDATED: Sunday, August 1, 2004 21:22
VIEWED: 8255
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HERO

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

Is there anyone else who finds this question completely disturbing coming from an adult?

Saw show, had thought, asked question. Now a reasoned discussion. If that is not an adult sequence of events then I don't know what is.

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The details of the story are gonna add up to a satisfying conclusion. You don't expect that kind of structure from real life, do you?

I don't agree. I've always found history reads like a book, and alot of the good parts end up as movies. I see your point, however. You are concerned that the uncertainty of the moment undermines the probability of a satisfying conclusion. I would suggest that this is the same as watching an 'all new' episode of Firefly or 24 without ever seeing a preview or trailor.

My central premise is not about the fictional world or the popularity of the shows in question. Its about the popularity of the characters and approval of the actions taken. If those actions are justified in the 'hypothetical' circumstances of the show, then why not in similar real world scenarios?

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Look at it in terms of science. In a TV show a scientist discovers what he's looking for because the show's about the discovery, not the generations of scientists who failed before him, or his own 25 years of fruitless experimentation.

I think the scientist who makes the discovery would disagree with you. For that person the story of the moment is about the discovery, everything else is background and set dressing.

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It disturbs the hell out of me that people like you and like Drakon over in the Demonization of the Opposition thread can believe that this simplistic, black hat/white hat mentality is reflected by the real world.

Yikes. Don't know Drakon, never posted on that thread. Always preferred a grey hat myself. But good guys and bad guys is a good way to sum up the real world. Take Iraq, you have terrorists killing innocent Iraqis and Coalition soldiers. You have Coalition soldiers killing innocent Iraqis and terrorists. The difference? The good guys feel remorse, but carry on and do their duty seeking to protect and serve and secure the blessings of liberty etc, etc. The bad guys dance in the streets and look for the next target to instill terror and sow chaos and destruction. Now maybe you don't agree with the color of their hats, but I think the differences are pretty broad.

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Hey, I haven't seen the show, but in the episode where the President tortures his victim, is there ANY question of the victim's guilt? Any at all? Christ! The very idea is disgusting. I don't want the President of the United States torturing anyone, thank you. I don't think I'm alone here.

I suggest you watch the show. To answer your question withoit a 'spoiler' warning...yes there is doubt, much doubt and the real plot isn't about terror at all. Good show, you might like it.

Speaking of the real world...I was watching O'Reilly interview an Army interrogator. The conclusion was that 'aggressive' interrogation (which is about discomfort and blackmail, not outright torture) is far more effective then softer methods. Perhaps this is a viable compromise.

vs.

And again: I'm just asking the questions, not advocating a particular answer...

H

KNIBBLET

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Man, you just bounce around without any direction and continue to avoid direct questions.

You speak of knowing what the Geneva Conventions are, yet avoid just a couple simple direct questions regarding them... Accusations of violation of the Geneva Conventions on the part of signatory nations are brought before the International Court of Justice at the Hague.

You spoke of genocide. Now you liken genocide to Israeli disregard of Palestinian rights and their mistreatment.

The countries do not necessarily consider such persons as lawful combatants. A combatant (also referred to as an enemy combatant) is a soldier or guerrilla member who is waging war.

The term Enemy combatant was first introduced in 1942 (before the Geneva Conventions) by a United States Supreme court decision in the case of "ex parte Quirin". Hmm.. where's Hitler?

By declaring yourself a non-zionist Jew you directly expect people to look upon that as noteworthy like it makes a difference... It's seems more of a PC declaration to appease the militant Muslim shitwads that are wreaking havoc throughout the world or their sympathizers who peruse these boards with their rigourous conspiracy theories and anti-american anti-semitic rhetoric.

First it was a "War for Oil" issue, which has been proven blatantly false. Now you've moved onto "Its all them damn Christian fundamentalists at fault" another falsehood.

This has nothing to do with Fundamentalist Christianity (another form of extremism I detest, though they don't blow themselves up in the name of Jehovah). This has to do with the wanton and deliberate attacks on civilians in Israel and throughout the world, regardless of civilian/military status, age, sex or nationality (Israelis aren't the only ones dying in suicide attacks).

Bitter much?

Speaking of the World Court - I wonder why our domestic regime is attempting to have all American servicemembers and government officials be granted immunity from war crimes charges ... makes you go hmmmmmmm.

I said that the courts didn't buy into the nazi's proclaiming paratroops 'terrorists' and justifying immediate execution or torture. It didn't work for them - it shouldn't work for us.

Many of those prisoners had NOTHING to do with anything but being in jail for unrelated crimes. The photo of the man in the hood with the wires connected to his body was in jail for carjacking. What the hell does carjacking have to do with knowing where non-existant WMD are?

Our puppet regime should not be exempt from law either. Here's a lovely little story you won't see on Fox News or 60 Minutes - A little story of putting bullets into prisoner's heads.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_19-7-2004_pg1_2

I never said that Israel is responsible for this war. What I said was: we aren't hated because of our 'freedoms' - we are hated because of our exploitive policies and our unwavering support for the exploitive and genocidal policies of Israel.

Genocide is an accurate definition for what is being conducted in Israel. By no means am I justifying or excusing terrorism, what I am saying is that the situation is creating terrorism.

The barrier being built (The existance thereof was denied by Israel for over 6 months before they had to admit they were building it) is destroying thousands of homes, farms and villages.

Here's another little bit of dehumanization against arab citizens.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/453006.html

I also never said that this war is the result of fundamentalist christians supporting Israel. I believe the reason the US supports Israel so blindly is, religious goblygook and the beliefs of some that Israel's existance will be necessary to faciliate the second coming of Christ.

Extremists of all stripe are dangerous. An Arab with a bomb strapped around his waist is no more dangerous than a bible thumping Baptist bombing a women's clinic.
A militant with a gun is a militant with a gun. A militant with a bomb is a mili

CONNORFLYNN

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:

Bitter much?

Yes, absolutely 100%. I'm sick to death of America bashers. I'm sick to death of unrealistic peaceniks who blame the worlds problems on my country. I'm sick to death of people outside my country laying claim to having a more in depth knowledge of what goes on in America then those of us who live here. I'm sick to death of lame assed , no basis in fact, specious comments.

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Speaking of the World Court - I wonder why our domestic regime is attempting to have all American servicemembers and government officials be granted immunity from war crimes charges ... makes you go hmmmmmmm.

Like any other conspiracy theorist, why don't you enlighten us. I believe it is to prevent every Mohammed Mohammad Mohammad from making a war crime complaint when they stub their toe or the wind changes direction after a US Soldier farted and the person had to smell it out of hand. In other words, it's primarily to prevent the many time consuming, costly instances of ridiculous litigation.

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I said that the courts didn't buy into the nazi's proclaiming paratroops 'terrorists' and justifying immediate execution or torture. It didn't work for them - it shouldn't work for us.

hmm.. okies. How many executions have we committed out of hand? Yet again you avoid the direct question. Do the terrorists and their sympathizers and accomplices meet the guidelines for protection under the Geneva conventions, and what "Non-torture" methods should we use to get wanton zealots to spill the beans?

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Many of those prisoners had NOTHING to do with anything but being in jail for unrelated crimes. The photo of the man in the hood with the wires connected to his body was in jail for carjacking. What the hell does carjacking have to do with knowing where non-existant WMD are?

Last I checked, we weren't just in Iraq to hunt for WMD's. Since the majority of car-jackings and kidnappings that follow them are directly linked to foreign terrorists, how the hell can you miss the link? Again, how do we get these pricks to talk, without using forceful measures, short of threatened execution?

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Our puppet regime should not be exempt from law either. Here's a lovely little story you won't see on Fox News or 60 Minutes - A little story of putting bullets into prisoner's heads.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_19-7-2004_pg1_2

Puhhllllleassse. For the love of god.. a news report from a pakistani editorial? How about a real news source. How about we substitute Tony Blairs name for Allawi and call it a day. I'm sure it'd be just as true. They don't even give source names. It reeks of Jason Blair syndrome.

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I never said that Israel is responsible for this war. What I said was: we aren't hated because of our 'freedoms' - we are hated because of our exploitive policies and our unwavering support for the exploitive and genocidal policies of Israel.

Genocide is an accurate definition for what is being conducted in Israel. By no means am I justifying or excusing terrorism, what I am saying is that the situation is creating terrorism.

Maybe genocide of Hamas and all its related terrorist buddies. Good riddance say I. As for the Palestinian people, no. ISrael does not seek the extermination of all arabs. The only time they strike out is after a terrorist attack or when a terrorist pops his weasley coward head up.

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The barrier being built (The existance thereof was denied by Israel for over 6 months before they had to admit they were building it) is destroying thousands of homes, farms and villages.

The Palestinain territories just aren't that big. How about you either deflate the number or inflate it a little bit more, like the standard arab media lackeys. Lets say Millions of people are being displaced, killed and their homes being destroyed by the Zionist death machine..roflmao. quite frankly we should all pull out and let them duke it out. Let Manifest destiny reign supreme. Let's

KNIBBLET

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:40 PM

There is absolutely nothing I can say in reply without reducing myself to your level of bigotry and hatred.

Good day, Sir.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

CONNORFLYNN

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
There is absolutely nothing I can say in reply without reducing myself to your level of bigotry and hatred.

Good day, Sir.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

How about answering the questions I pose, rather then posting some specious fiction. As for me being a bigot full of hatred. If you'll look at just about every single frigging Topic header in the "Real World Event Discussions" and tell me who is doing the hating. Everyone who has a Pro-America opinion and calls bullshit when the see it, is a bigot and full of hatred. Everyone who is Anti-America is considered progressive and righteous. At least mine is a justified disdain,rather then a misplaced bashfest on the US of A.

CONNORFLYNN

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 7:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by whispering:
Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Eh?! What are you talking about? We aren't the ones running around blowing ourselves up in the name of Allah. These pricks aren't going to tell us any information regarding their cells etc..by being nice to them. For the most part the majority of the people being "Tortured" are wanton criminals who don't deserve anything more then a bullet in the back of the head. They're lucky all we are doing is throwing some panties over their heads or "Pretending" we are going to electrocute them.

You cant be serious. These are human beings were talking about. If you want to know what happens when you use torture as a weapon in war, just read what happened in Rwanda, or the current situation in Sudan.

Yep, these are human beings bent on death and destruction. Not worthy enough to breath the same air we do IMHO. What other way will we get them to talk? Tea and crumpets? lol.

The similarity between us and the Sudan is that it is once again Muslim extremism running rampant while the UN stands by too afraid to rise up and kick their coward asses. Oh they'll have 10 UN resolutions proclaiming the tragedy of what is happening there, but by the time they get around to ever acting on it ,if ever, millions will have been killed.

The difference between us (the US),Rwanda or the Sudan is that we are trying to save lives by finding the Terrorist cells before they achieve their goals,death and destruction of honest god-fearing civilians. The only way is to rip, pull, tug and tear the information out of the Militants we have. Thats the only way we will get any info from them. We have no choice. The battle is on. We will make them talk. We will find their hidden cells and we will end them or they will keep blowing shit up.

My compassion towards them ended when they beheaded Paul Johnson, Nick Berg, Kim Il and Daniel Pearl.

WHISPERING

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Yep, these are human beings bent on death and destruction. Not worthy enough to breath the same air we do IMHO. What other way will we get them to talk? Tea and crumpets? lol.

Your crazy, neo nazi bulls***, nothing more.

CONNORFLYNN

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by whispering:
Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Yep, these are human beings bent on death and destruction. Not worthy enough to breath the same air we do IMHO. What other way will we get them to talk? Tea and crumpets? lol.

Your crazy, neo nazi bulls***, nothing more.

Yep, that'll get em to talk LOL

KNIBBLET

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by whispering:
Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Yep, these are human beings bent on death and destruction. Not worthy enough to breath the same air we do IMHO. What other way will we get them to talk? Tea and crumpets? lol.

Your crazy, neo nazi bulls***, nothing more.

Tisk tisk, Whispering.

I've come to realize that Connorflynn cannot possibly believe everything he's saying. He's simply entertaining himself by getting other people to respond to his extreme posts.

Don't let him get you riled up. You're merely providing free entertainment.

Take a chill pill and force him to go to buy a book or go to the movies or whatever else he might find entertaining.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
My compassion towards them ended when they beheaded Paul Johnson, Nick Berg, Kim Il and Daniel Pearl.

I've met people like you before.

Try this one out, from real life, paraphrased:
Person 1 “You going to see that Nazi bastard?”
Person 2 “I’m going to fix some appliances in apartment four.”
Person 1 “That’s the Nazi bastard. He should be shot.”
Person 2 “He’s just an old man.”
Person 1 “He’s a Nazi bastard.”
You might notice at this point that the term “Nazi bastard” was used quite a bit.
Person 2 “Why don’t you leave him alone?”
Person 1 “They didn’t leave us alone.”
*conversation ends*
While fixing the appliance person two notices a tattoo on the “Nazi bastard”’s arm. It was a concentration camp identification number. The so-called “Nazi bastard” was a victim. He had just as much connecting him to the Nazis as some of these people have connecting them to terrorists.

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