Senators want to know -- 'ghost' detainees

POSTED BY: Honey
UPDATED: Sunday, August 1, 2004 21:22
VIEWED: 8255
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HONEY

Sunday, July 18, 2004 9:06 AM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&e=5&u=/usatoday/20
040716/ts_usatoday/senatorswanttoknowmoreonghostdetainees

Senators want to know more on 'ghost' detainees
Fri Jul 16, 6:41 AM ET
By Peter Eisler and Blake Morrison,USA TODAY

The chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee (news - web sites) called Thursday for Congress to examine lingering questions about the abuse of detainees in Iraq (news - web sites) and elsewhere by U.S. forces, including the practice of keeping secret the whereabouts and identities of some prisoners.

Sen. John Warner (news, bio, voting record), R-Va., said lawmakers expressed concerns about such "ghost" detainees during a closed briefing Thursday that included a review of reports by the International Committee of the Red Cross.
U.S. officials have acknowledged that the names of some detainees captured by military and intelligence forces during the war on terrorism have not been logged in official records. In some cases, they say, keeping secret the locations or names of detainees has been crucial to gathering intelligence.

But the Red Cross fears that the practice could result in the abuse of detainees and make it impossible to monitor the conditions in which they're held. It has called on U.S. officials to account for any ghost detainees and make them available for interviews about their treatment. Armed Services Committee members say they want more information from the Bush administration on the issue, and others related to the abuse scandal at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

Concerns about ghost detainees also are raised in sworn statements that are among more than 6,000 pages of still-classified documents about misconduct at Abu Ghraib.

The documents, obtained by USA TODAY, indicate that several military officers at Abu Ghraib raised questions about ghost detainees there.
The detainees typically were brought to the prison by CIA (news - web sites) personnel, who would skip the prisoner-registration process, the records say. After a few days of interrogation, the captives would be moved to other, undisclosed locations, according to statements by two Army officers who questioned the practice.

The documents were submitted to the Pentagon (news - web sites) and Congress in April as supplements to a report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba on abuse at Abu Ghraib.

A transcript in the report indicates that Army Lt. Col. Steven Jordan, a senior officer at the prison, told investigators that he had pushed for some sort of official documentation of ghost detainees. Military police officers, who were responsible for guarding prisoners at Abu Ghraib, said, "Hey, we can't be responsible for them if they don't exist," Jordan said.

The documents quote Jordan as saying there was a verbal "agreement" between the CIA agents and the military intelligence officer in charge of the prison, Col. Thomas Pappas. Jordan said Pappas once told him to hide ghost detainees before a Red Cross team came to inspect the prison.
On Thursday, Warner's panel was updated about several Defense Department investigations into the abuses. Warner said he learned of new instances of possible mistreatment of detainees. "Each day that comes along, new incidents" are revealed, he said.

Among other questions raised by the supplements to the Taguba report:

How much pressure top White House and Pentagon officials put on military intelligence officers to get information from Iraqi detainees. A sworn statement by the military intelligence officer who oversaw interrogations mentioned a visit by an aide to national security adviser Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites). But Taguba asked for no details of the visit.

Whether a translator and another soldier had sexual intercourse with detainees. Sworn statements suggest both might have raped prisoners. No one has been charged with rape.

"There are some serious crimes here," committee member Lindsey Graham, R-S.C, said this week. "The command culture that led to this has to be addressed."

The documents, which make up the 106 attachm

HERO

Monday, July 19, 2004 4:17 PM

I just finished watching the first two seasons of 24. That show has US intelligence officers and the President murdering and torturing terrorists and conspirators. Those are the good guys and it seems perfectly acceptable for them to do those otherwise bad acts.

If its acceptable in a fictional setting, why is torture and abuse not acceptable in the real world were the stakes are more...real?

In other words...if you could stop 9/11 by torturing a foriegn terrorist and just maybe arranging for the murder of his family in front of him live via satalite, would it be wrong?

I'm just asking the questions, not advocating a particular answer...

H

KNIBBLET

Monday, July 19, 2004 4:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
In other words...if you could stop 9/11 by torturing a foriegn terrorist and just maybe arranging for the murder of his family in front of him live via satalite, would it be wrong?

Yes. It would. Sorry you had to ask.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

HERO

Monday, July 19, 2004 5:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
Yes. It would. Sorry you had to ask.

I'm not sure everyone would agree with you. 5,000 innocent lives versus 1 terrorist in pain seems an unfair trade. Intellectually a fair number of people would die and kill for their country (ie the military and first responders).

Why wait till after they kill us to start?

Also, if the information a terrorist has might save thousands or millions of lives, why not use any means necessary to extract it?

Simply saying that it is wrong is no longer enough. Circumstances require us to reason why. My answer would be to explore our morals and values for an answer to this most moral issue. But if the Clinton-era has taught us anything it is that subjective private morals and values should have no role in government.

Seems to me a nation at war can afford morals and values only so far as they are winning. Thats why our enemies seem to lack such values. Believe me, if we faced daily 9/11 bombings then our values would be abandoned in favor of the effective if immoral response.

H

KNIBBLET

Monday, July 19, 2004 5:22 PM

Help me understand your reasoning here.

If we believe we are threatened, we should kidnap the people we believe are threatening us, torture them, murder their families and generally abandon all of our values in order to remove the perceived threat?

And this makes us different from terrorists ... how?

We should abandon international law and the Geneva conventions (designed to protect the fighters of ALL nations) when it suits our purpose?

I'm going to ask what 911 has to do with detainees in Iraq and the deliberate obfuscation being carried on by the minions of the administration. Of course, I'd ask what the *#*&^% invading Iraq has to do with 911, but that has been asked thousands of times before.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

JADEHAND

Monday, July 19, 2004 5:36 PM

Well, I hate these things, but have to say a few things on this point. Whilst I agree with Knibblet that yes it would be wrong, I'd still do it in less than a heartbeat. I'd do it a hundred times. Wrong? yes. Unexceptable? No. Situations like this require a certain "Moral flexability" as they say in Grosse Pointe Blank. And all the people that have a problem with such things missed a valid point made in A Few Good Men, you need people willing to do the things that you're not "up on that wall". No I've never been military, but I'm thankful for Static and everyother man and woman out there trying their best to make us all feel safe enough to get a good nights sleep.
And Torture? come on, they but leases on them and put panties on their heads. Maybe even attached electrodes to their nipples. There are people in this country that would pay for that kind of treatment in the SM community. That's not torture that's introduction to alternative lifestlyes. "free your mind."
sorry, end-o-rant.

Visit WWW.Marillion.Com for a better way to live

CONNORFLYNN

Monday, July 19, 2004 8:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
We should abandon international law and the Geneva conventions (designed to protect the fighters of ALL nations) when it suits our purpose?

What flag do the terrorists fight under? Do they have names, ranks and serial numbers? What is their common identifiable uniform?

The terrorists do not, nor have they ever followed the edicts of the Geneva Convention (which I might add was written when there were traditional/conventional methods to war that most countries followed). Thus they do not nor have they ever fallen under the protections of the Geneva Convention.

For this reason, if we do not meet them with force (diplomacy doesn't work and has never worked, I believe the Barbary Pirates come to mind as a good example LOL), meet them on terms that they can understand , pain being one that all men bend to. Then how do we expect to win? Or should we hand the keys of the country over to the Islamfascists now?

In this conflict, it's us or them. I'd rather it be them all day, every day.

They won't sit by and play patty-cakes or sit and have tea with us to resolve our differences.
They are animals. If we can save one civilian life by torturing a terrorist bastard. So be it.

In the proverbial words of Tony Soprano - "Paulie, get the ball cutters"

KNIBBLET

Monday, July 19, 2004 9:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
What flag do the terrorists fight under? Do they have names, ranks and serial numbers? What is their common identifiable uniform?

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
We should abandon international law and the Geneva conventions (designed to protect the fighters of ALL nations) when it suits our purpose?

My standards of moral and ethical conduct are not built on a sliding scale. What is right and wrong is not determined by the conduct of my enemy but rather, by the content of my soul.

Throwing our constitution and its protections into the trash is not something I'm willing to do. Having people kidnapped and tortured in foreign countries to avoid United States laws is not something I'm willing to condone.

Of course, invading a sovereign nation in the quest for a natural resource which will be depleted within 40 years is also not high on my "to do" list.

The invasion of Iraq and the seizure of the oil fields has nothing to do with terrorism or 911. The sooner people pull their heads out of Bush's ass and realize that, the fewer US troops and Iraqi's will die in the quest for oil and power.

As a Jew - but a non-Zionist, I must state loudly and clearly: Muslims don't hate our "Freedoms". They aren't pissed because we can choose between 40 brands of feminine hygiene products and 300 cable channels -- we are being targeted due to 100 years of exploitive policies and the fact that our government supports Israel and its genocidal policies.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

KNIBBLET

Monday, July 19, 2004 9:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jadehand:
And Torture? come on, they but leases on them and put panties on their heads. Maybe even attached electrodes to their nipples. There are people in this country that would pay for that kind of treatment in the SM community. That's not torture that's introduction to alternative lifestlyes.

Ahhh, the joys of the obedient american corporate media. They have chosen not to cover many stories because they'd be "upsetting" to the obedient american public.

You haven't seen the worst photos and you haven't heard the worst examples of torture. Raping children is an exceptable "alternative lifestyle" for you?

I've deleted at least 30 reports of murder, rape, beatings, etc. Here's one I received today and hadn't yet cleaned out my mail box.

http://www.boingboing.net/2004/07/15/hersh_children_raped.html

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

CONNORFLYNN

Monday, July 19, 2004 9:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jadehand:
And Torture? come on, they but leases on them and put panties on their heads. Maybe even attached electrodes to their nipples. There are people in this country that would pay for that kind of treatment in the SM community. That's not torture that's introduction to alternative lifestlyes.

Ahhh, the joys of the obedient american corporate media. They have chosen not to cover many stories because they'd be "upsetting" to the obedient american public.

You haven't seen the worst photos and you haven't heard the worst examples of torture. Raping children is an exceptable "alternative lifestyle" for you?

I've deleted at least 30 reports of murder, rape, beatings, etc. Here's one I received today and hadn't yet cleaned out my mail box.

http://www.boingboing.net/2004/07/15/hersh_children_raped.html

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

No offense.. I call Bullshit

Our media would be all over that, if that story bore even a smidge of truth. The Arab media would be all over that, not to mention all the other countries in the world for that matter. Or is every country under the countrol of the Obedient American media. I have a couple bridges to sell you cheap, if you believe that garbage.

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