General Discussions

So... a higher body count if Firefly went the distance on TV-?

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Saturday, August 14, 2010 03:21
VIEWED: 14189
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STORYMARK

Friday, August 13, 2010 6:29 PM

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Originally posted by GWEK:
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Originally posted by Storymark:
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Originally posted by GWEK:

A few people have earmarked Simon for death "in order to let River grow." I don't see that happening, because I think Joss realized Simon was much to interesting a character to kill off.

Matter of opinion. Simon always bored me, and was the one character I was actually kinda hoping would die in Serenity.

Yes, it's a matter of opinion. That's part of why I prefaced it with "I think..."

Your point is?

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

Uh.... my point is the same as yours - to give MY opinion (isn't that what the board is for?). That's why I said "Simon bored ME" (as opposed to Simon is boring - to EVERYONE).

You give your opinion, I give mine, someone else gives theirs.... you know.... a conversation.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

STORYMARK

Friday, August 13, 2010 6:31 PM

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Originally posted by pennausamike:
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Originally posted by Storymark:
SNIP
just sounds a bit simplistic
Asinine comparison
Yes, lets ignore
that's not even remotely true
Such a facile generalization.
Wait... Nevermind, fanatics don't take kindly to reason....

DUDE!
I'm just posting what I look for in escapist entertainment.
I appreciate that others don't feel the same way.

Your response to my post was like something out of the Real World Discussions.

Sorry, but regardless of the topic, when someone responds to me by making broad and inaccurate generalizations, I take issue.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

GWEK

Friday, August 13, 2010 6:53 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Aside from the "rebel son" thing, I don't see this at all.

Simon's main issue during the series is that he has split loyalty between the crew and his sister. And the decisions he makes, including the initial decision that's gotten him in hot water, is not so much hard or easy but rather "what benefits River?"

I think you're misreading Simon. His issue is not at all split loyalty between the crew and River. HIS LOYALTY IS TO RIVER. The crew is a means to an end (helping is sister).

None of Simon's decisions are hard? Simon gives up his cushy life for the HOPE that he can help his sister in some way. He choses to join the crew of a ship where he obviously doesn't fit in, again, because it is the only place that his sister might be able to get by.

It is no accident of writing that Simon is a doctor and that his job is to hold the life and death of the crew in his hands.

A close reading of the show indicates, I think, that Simon (like some other Whedon characters--including Wesley) is the one who often makes the right choice--and is kicked in the teeth for it.

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Simon's secret wish to return to the life he left behind is his character flaw at the time of the series, and so if he were to have an arc I'd say it's letting go of those selfish desires he's buried deep down. This makes Simon a better caretaker to River, and also leads either to Simon eventually coming to accept the life he's found himself in, or might eventually lead Simon to become more generally heroic (not just to River).

One thing that I find very interesting about Simon is that he's unique among the crew in that he has seen both the good and bad of both the Core and the Rim (arguably, Inara is in a comparable position, but we don't know enough of her history). While most of the other characters are sort of in a binary lifestyle, I think Simon is in a much grayer area. You indicate that his character choice is basically to return home or stay on the ship (basically chosing to side with one father or another, Mal or Gabriel). I submit that his actual dramatic choice is to remain stagmant by picking either of those paths (doesn't matter which) OR "grow up" and forge a path of his own.

You refer to Simon's "selfish" desire hidden deep down, but I think the issue with him is that he's too SELFLESS! He needs to nut up and be a little selfish and figure out his own path rather than just helping others.

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Simon isn't actually male lead material in his own right, this isn't a verse that's friendly to idealistic doctor healing types, it's a verse where you have to fight to keep from losing what little you have.

And when has Simon ever NOT been doing that?!?

Simon is CONSTANTLY fighting that fight... and I think that's the thing that makes him "more heroic" than someone like Mal or Jayne (and potentially "male lead material" in a philosophical sense).

Consider "Objects in Space": When Mal confronts Jubal, he's got the upper hand and has ambushed him, thanks to a plan that someone else came up with. But when Simon confronts him, he's in a clearly inferior position and is very likely to lose--but he risks his life anyway because it's the right thing to do and it's what he NEEDS to do to protect his family (literally, River, but also the crew as a whole).

Which is, on the balance, the more heroic, and the harder choice?

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A Wesley character is a scrappy character. Simon wasn't heading for Mary Sue territory.

When I say a Wesley-type character, I don't mean in a long coat and with a scruffy beard. I mean a character who makes the right decision for the wrong reasons... or the wrong decision for the right reasons... Well within Simon's character as we've seen him so far.

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Your Book and Mal scenario would also suggest that for the rebellious son to rise up against the father, they would have to kill the father Despite Mal's ethically questionable decision to use River in a bank heist in the movie, and the fallout with Simon over it, I d

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BYTEMITE

Friday, August 13, 2010 7:00 PM

Oops, wrong Wesley.

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None of Simon's decisions are hard? Simon gives up his cushy life for the HOPE that he can help his sister in some way. He choses to join the crew of a ship where he obviously doesn't fit in, again, because it is the only place that his sister might be able to get by.

You misunderstand. Simon's choices aren't defined by how hard they are, he makes both hard and easy choices. But what they ARE defined by is what benefits River.

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And when has Simon ever NOT been doing that?!?

Simon is CONSTANTLY fighting that fight... and I think that's the thing that makes him "more heroic" than someone like Mal or Jayne (and potentially "male lead material" in a philosophical sense).

He has, and this is something that consistently defines the struggles of ALL the members of the crew. But Simon has significant disadvantages if you're considering him for being in the male lead role.

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Consider "Objects in Space": When Mal confronts Jubal, he's got the upper hand and has ambushed him, thanks to a plan that someone else came up with. But when Simon confronts him, he's in a clearly inferior position and is very likely to lose--but he risks his life anyway because it's the right thing to do and it's what he NEEDS to do to protect his family (literally, River, but also the crew as a whole).

Yet Simon simply is not the one who defeats the big bads, nor is he ever in the position to do so. Mal is the hero of the story. I understand you like and identify with Simon, but making Simon focus and hero of the story is a stretch and quite clearly not the point of the story.

Simon is the most idealistic character, the most self-sacrificing character, but he is, unfortunately, not the most heroic character, as his decisions still revolve around benefiting River, NOT the greater good. In literature, the classic definition of the hero is the one who attempts to defeat the antagonist or solve the overarcing situation at hand. Their success, or failure, determines whether the story is a tragedy or not.

In Simon's case, he attacked Jubal Early, but his attack was independent on the outcome of what HAPPENED with Jubal Early. This makes Simon a supporting character, an important one, who represents a driving force behind the main hero character. Not the hero. If he was the hero, his failure to defeat Jubal Early would have made the story have a tragic outcome.

GWEK

Friday, August 13, 2010 7:01 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
From this we can infer that if Inara lives, she will get to be with Mal, as Inara dying makes her not being with Mal a foregone conclusion.

I haven't read the story for a while, so I don't recall if this particular statement is impacted by it, but, on it's own, your statement above is false.

"Inara dying makes her not being with Mal a foregone conclusion" is not at all true. If Inara dies in a year, she could well have spent 11 and a half of her remaining months with Mal.

We're pretty far afield of my original point, though, which is that the short story seems to support (although not unambiguously) that Inara is dying within canon (rather than simply within conversation at conventions).

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

BYTEMITE

Friday, August 13, 2010 7:09 PM

Uh, no, because the implication is that when Inara asks if she gets to BE with Mal, it's in the sense of a relationship. If she dies before she gets a relationship upgrade, then this doesn't happen. It's also true in the sense that if she does get a relationship upgrade, then dies, she will then no longer be with Mal, and so she then doesn't get to be with Mal thereafter.

I agree with your original point, I don't know why you're arguing my interpretation. Do you disagree, are you saying my interpretation doesn't fit the success and failure state of the logical question?

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN

Friday, August 13, 2010 7:14 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Oops, wrong Wesley.

Quote:
None of Simon's decisions are hard? Simon gives up his cushy life for the HOPE that he can help his sister in some way. He choses to join the crew of a ship where he obviously doesn't fit in, again, because it is the only place that his sister might be able to get by.

You misunderstand. Simon's choices aren't defined by how hard they are, he makes both hard and easy choices. But what they ARE defined by is what benefits River.

Quote:
And when has Simon ever NOT been doing that?!?

Simon is CONSTANTLY fighting that fight... and I think that's the thing that makes him "more heroic" than someone like Mal or Jayne (and potentially "male lead material" in a philosophical sense).

He has, and this is something that consistently defines the struggles of ALL the members of the crew. But Simon has significant disadvantages if you're considering him for being in the male lead role.

Quote:
Consider "Objects in Space": When Mal confronts Jubal, he's got the upper hand and has ambushed him, thanks to a plan that someone else came up with. But when Simon confronts him, he's in a clearly inferior position and is very likely to lose--but he risks his life anyway because it's the right thing to do and it's what he NEEDS to do to protect his family (literally, River, but also the crew as a whole).

Which is, on the balance, the more heroic, and the harder choice?

Yet Simon simply is not the one who defeats the big bads, nor is he ever in the position to do so. Mal is the hero of the story. I understand you like and identify with Simon, but making Simon focus and hero of the story is a stretch and quite clearly not the point of the story.

Just to jump in here, who says Simon becomes the male lead? He already IS *a* male lead, I don't think Simon having an arc drops Mal out of the running or anything, but the Father/Son dynamic Gwek points out is pretty evident in the series already, and there's plenty of foreshadowing there that indicates Simon's path is going to weird places. As for scrappy, we see them toughening him up in the movie (Sean and Joss talked about that in a few interviews - Simon's getting rough around the edges, acclimated to the new life, and taking more and more part in crime). Currently Simon IS more the philosophical hero in the story, and it's in that which he provides a contrast to Mal, the lead hero - and it's Simon who pushes Mal to become the true hero again that he once was - there's a really nice essay in one for the Finding Serenity books that goes into this a fair bit.

The difficulty is discerning Simon's future path - will he maintain his integrity, or in the process of becoming a little more selfish, go down a less noble path? Will his focus shift away from River, or will it remain on her, but maybe twist into something different? And of course, how does that effect Mal's future choices? That's what ALL these characters are btw - spokes on the wheel around Mal, and they are pushing and pulling him by their actions. And Simon's effect on Mal was a strong one from the second he steped on the ship. Think we would have seen that evolve over time.

Honestly you guys, the only character I can never figure out is Zoe. Does anyone here think the scene at the end of float out is cannon?

CORTEXOVERRIDE

Friday, August 13, 2010 7:15 PM

Now that I think about it. From the way the Alliance was portrayed in the tv show, the BDM, The Session 416, etc. it seemed like a revolution was going to spark from all of the lies, secrecy and backstabbing from within. So if the series would of gone on longer, than I would've of expected another Interglactic Civil War with a large body count by the hundreds. I could really see Joss having the series end just like the way it started.

(((tO sPARK tHE mOVEMENT)))

GWEK

Friday, August 13, 2010 7:17 PM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
You misunderstand. Simon's choices aren't defined by how hard they are, he makes both hard and easy choices. But what they ARE defined by is what benefits River.

And on the balance, those are harder choices than the other characters have to make.

Dramatically speaking, Mal's choices are often fairly easy... and the ones that are emotionally difficult are the ones that he runs from.

Again, this is intentional storytelling, because Simon is in many ways a mirror image of Mal. Where one is strong, the other is weak.

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He has, and this is something that consistently defines the struggles of ALL the members of the crew. But Simon has significant disadvantages if you're considering him for being in the male lead role.

When did I ever say he should be the male lead? (Although I do believe that Sean Maher could probably carry a show.) If anything, the character arc that I'm suggestion would have him off the show, not at his center. HIS REBELLION IS TO LEAVE.

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Yet Simon simply is not the one who defeats the big bads, nor is he ever in the position to do so. Mal is the hero of the story.

But I'm not talking about Mal's story. I'm talking about Simon's story. Every character in the show has a character arc and their own story to tell. I'm talking about Simon's character arc here.

And, to be honest, Mal actually doesn't defeat the Big Bads all that often--at least not on his own. He has help from virtually every crew member at some point or another.

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I understand you like and identify with Simon, but making Simon focus and hero of the story is a stretch and quite clearly not the point of the story.

You're making a lot of assumptions here.

I never said that Simon should be the hero of the story (although, on the whole, I DO consider his actions to be more heroic than Mal's: for the record, I also consider Xander to ultimately be more heroic than Buffy, Spike to be more heroic than Angel, and virtually everyone in DOLLHOUSE except Topher and DeWitt to be more heroic than Echo, Leia to be more heroic than Luke, and Bail Organa to be more heroic than Anakin Skywalker or Yoda... but that doesn't change who the main characters are).

Also, I don't particularly identify with Simon, nor do I necessarily like him (compared with other characters on the show). I simply think he's a much deeper and more interesting character than he is given credit for.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

GLYWYSING

Friday, August 13, 2010 7:19 PM

I would have liked to have seen Inara leaving the crew as she does, but to be replaced on the show by Yosaffbridge!